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Post by sepiatone on Mar 10, 2023 18:12:52 GMT
Anyone who saw their presentation of THE FRENCH CONNECTION('70) knows what I mean.
The scene following the opening segment where they chase down a suspect who cuts "Cloudy's"(Roy Scheider) hand where Cloudy walks into a lobby type area in the precinct building and Cloudy complains about the injury. Popeye(Gene Hackman) replies, "Never trust a n**ger." And when Cloudy says, "he could have been white." Popeye then says, "Never trust anybody." with a grin. The word wasn't "bleeped" or muted, the entire 20 or so seconds were completely removed.
Now, just how does that fit in with Turner Classic Movies' claim that they show movies "Uncut and commercial free."?
Sepiatone
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Post by topbilled on Mar 10, 2023 20:35:42 GMT
They also show a print of THEY ALL KISSED THE BRIDE (1942) where Joan Crawford's character makes a derogatory comment about dirty J*ps or some such thing, that gets edited out so as not to offend anyone in the audience who may consider it a slur.
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Post by kims on Mar 10, 2023 21:28:31 GMT
They made a big deal that all these films deserve to be seen, they would put context into the intros. Have they dared to say uncut and commercial free lately?
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Post by Fading Fast on Mar 10, 2023 21:39:35 GMT
They made a big deal that all these films deserve to be seen, they would put context into the intros. Have they dared to say uncut and commercial free lately? I remember them making those speeches too, which sounded to me like the right balance to strike. It makes this "editing" disheartening and, at least on the surface, seem dishonest.
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Post by BingFan on Mar 10, 2023 22:08:04 GMT
I suppose it’s possible that the owners of the two films — Columbia for They All Kissed The Bride and Fox for The French Connection — supplied TCM with edited copies of the films.
If TCM knew about the cuts, their options would have been not showing the films at all or disclosing the cuts in the intros.
In my opinion, they shouldn’t be showing edited films, even if cuts could be disclosed. Showing edited films, as others have pointed out, would violate TCM’s longtime commitment to showing only uncut films, which I think is a pretty important commitment. That said, I could easily imagine that, for example, there is no longer an available print of The French Connection with the offensive language still included.
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Post by kims on Mar 11, 2023 1:45:07 GMT
I just remembered that in the late '80's airlines were provided edited films. I don't know if by the studio or the airline. My boss had seen a film in the theater, then on a plane with his son the film was shown edited. My boss commented it was just as good with the profanity dubbed out with darns and such. All the same, there are organizations doing preservation and films re-released as director's cut and modified films seems contrary to preservations. Remember the uproar when Ted okayed colorizing films?
In the case of THE FRENCH CONNECTION, editing out that sequence eliminates a positive point-it could have been anybody. I thought cable stations weren't subject to the codes of the networks.
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Post by sepiatone on Mar 11, 2023 16:43:23 GMT
I suppose it’s possible that the owners of the two films — Columbia for They All Kissed The Bride and Fox for The French Connection — supplied TCM with edited copies of the films.
If TCM knew about the cuts, their options would have been not showing the films at all or disclosing the cuts in the intros.
In my opinion, they shouldn’t be showing edited films, even if cuts could be disclosed. Showing edited films, as others have pointed out, would violate TCM’s longtime commitment to showing only uncut films, which I think is a pretty important commitment. That said, I could easily imagine that, for example, there is no longer an available print of The French Connection with the offensive language still included.
Well, I have a DVD they could borrow! Sepiatone
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Post by jamesjazzguitar on Mar 11, 2023 17:10:33 GMT
They made a big deal that all these films deserve to be seen, they would put context into the intros. Have they dared to say uncut and commercial free lately? I remember them making those speeches too, which sounded to me like the right balance to strike. It makes this "editing" disheartening and, at least on the surface, seem dishonest.
TCM can't edit a film since that would be illegal. Thus, TCM leased a film that was edited by those with the legal rights to do so. Bing has a sound understanding of what is going on, which is: Should TCM lease a film that has been edited (assuming the leaseholder doesn't have an unedited version to lease), OR should TCM just not show the film unless it is the original version?
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Post by jamesjazzguitar on Mar 11, 2023 17:11:56 GMT
I suppose it’s possible that the owners of the two films — Columbia for They All Kissed The Bride and Fox for The French Connection — supplied TCM with edited copies of the films.
If TCM knew about the cuts, their options would have been not showing the films at all or disclosing the cuts in the intros.
In my opinion, they shouldn’t be showing edited films, even if cuts could be disclosed. Showing edited films, as others have pointed out, would violate TCM’s longtime commitment to showing only uncut films, which I think is a pretty important commitment. That said, I could easily imagine that, for example, there is no longer an available print of The French Connection with the offensive language still included.
Well, I have a DVD they could borrow! Sepiatone Funny joke, but it is a joke, since it would be illegal for TCM to show a film that wasn't in the public domain that TCM didn't lease from the leaseholder.
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Post by topbilled on Mar 11, 2023 17:13:20 GMT
I remember them making those speeches too, which sounded to me like the right balance to strike. It makes this "editing" disheartening and, at least on the surface, seem dishonest.
TCM can't edit a film since that would be illegal. Thus, TCM leased a film that was edited by those with the legal rights to do so. Bing has a sound understanding of what is going on, which is: Should TCM lease a film that has been edited (assuming the leaseholder doesn't have an unedited version to lease), OR should TCM just not show the film unless it is the original version? Right. I think the responsibility (and the blame) lies with TCM. After all, they are in charge of their programming. They know if they are leasing an edited film, especially when they lease it again and put that same edited version back on the schedule which is what has happened several times with the Joan Crawford title I mentioned.
They can't act like they show films uncut then actually still put cut films on the schedule. That is them talking out of both sides of their mouth.
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Post by sepiatone on Mar 11, 2023 17:20:21 GMT
Well, I have a DVD they could borrow! Sepiatone Funny joke, but it is a joke, since it would be illegal for TCM to show a film that wasn't in the public domain that TCM didn't lease from the leaseholder. Really James, I hate to spoil your "life of the party" moment here, but was pointing out there likely are copies to be obtained that were unedited. I have no doubt there are probably some "leaseholders" of THE FRENCH CONNECTION that have unedited copies who'll gladly lease them out for the right price. Sepiatone
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Post by Fading Fast on Mar 11, 2023 17:39:00 GMT
I remember them making those speeches too, which sounded to me like the right balance to strike. It makes this "editing" disheartening and, at least on the surface, seem dishonest.
TCM can't edit a film since that would be illegal. Thus, TCM leased a film that was edited by those with the legal rights to do so. Bing has a sound understanding of what is going on, which is: Should TCM lease a film that has been edited (assuming the leaseholder doesn't have an unedited version to lease), OR should TCM just not show the film unless it is the original version? Thank you JJG. Your points are why I noted in my comment "on the surface," as these situations can get quite complex in the real world.
Since TCM has made a big point about not editing/cutting films - in particular for "sensitive" content - then it would seem a boilerplate (legal approved and vetted to death) notice at the start of an edited film stating that this film has been edited would be the honorable way to deal with the situation if they can't lease an unedited version.
I'm not in the TCM is bad camp and, as mentioned, I thought it struck a pretty good balance saying that it would discuss these potentially sensitive issues but also saying it wouldn't edit them out or stop showing those films altogether. Hence, if TCM end up showing an edited version owing to leasing issues, it should note that to its audience.
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Post by jamesjazzguitar on Mar 11, 2023 18:38:39 GMT
TCM can't edit a film since that would be illegal. Thus, TCM leased a film that was edited by those with the legal rights to do so. Bing has a sound understanding of what is going on, which is: Should TCM lease a film that has been edited (assuming the leaseholder doesn't have an unedited version to lease), OR should TCM just not show the film unless it is the original version? Thank you JJG. Your points are why I noted in my comment "on the surface," as these situations can get quite complex in the real world.
Since TCM has made a big point about not editing/cutting films - in particular for "sensitive" content - then it would seem a boilerplate (legal approved and vetted to death) notice at the start of an edited film stating that this film has been edited would be the honorable way to deal with the situation if they can't lease an unedited version.
I'm not in the TCM is bad camp and, as mentioned, I thought it struck a pretty good balance saying that it would discuss these potentially sensitive issues but also saying it wouldn't edit them out or stop showing those films altogether. Hence, if TCM end up showing an edited version owing to leasing issues, it should note that to its audience. I agree with TB's point that TCM should know what they are leasing and therefor will be showing. TCM can either decide to not lease a film that has been "edited" or, as you point-out, note that to the audience as part of the intro. Note that there is also the case of multiple so-called original versions. E.g. Mata Hari (1931). There is the pre-code original version. MGM re-released the film after July 1934 (the start of strict Production code enforcement) and had to edit the film to get it approved for release. TCM leases the Production Code version: therefore, there is such a concept as an original, edited version. I believe the intro (done by Osborne), did mention these multiple original versions. Also, there is the concept of director versions: most director versions add some footage to existing scenes or add entire scenes; thus, these are edited versions and clearly not the original studio-released version. I believe most viewers favor these edited, non-original versions.
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Post by cmovieviewer on Mar 11, 2023 19:17:56 GMT
This is obviously a complex topic. (Sorry I may be repeating points that have already been made.) 1. Do the business owners of a work of art have the right to modify that work? The recent debate about the modifications made to the Roald Dahl books brought this to the fore. In the Roald Dahl case they have decided to publish 2 versions of the books, with and without the changes. For The French Connection, the original version still exists on DVD and Blu-Ray, but Fox (Disney) seems to only be providing the edited version for broadcast. A more silly example, but George Lucas has tinkered with the original set of Star Wars films when they were re-released for theaters and for sale in different forms. Did Han Solo shoot first? Is an authorized director change different from a studio change? (Thanks James for the Mata Hari example.)
2. The N-word is something of a special case:
3. Are there other films that TCM has shown where the word is used? For more recent films (made after the use of the production code changed in the 60’s), the most likely cases would be for Spike Lee films and Tarantino films. TCM has shown Do the Right Thing. The owners of the rights to this film have not changed it. TCM has shown Reservoir Dogs (the only Tarantino film they have shown so far). The owners of the rights to this film have not changed it.
(I'm sure there are other examples, but these were the easiest to look up.)
4. Should TCM keep track of changes that the rights owners have made to the films? Is it censorship if the rights holders make the changes?
A grey-area case I can cite is the movie Marty. There is an ‘extra scene’ where Clara returns home after her first date with Marty and talks to her parents about what happened and we learn of her hopes for the future. There are versions of this film with and without this scene. For many years TCM showed the version with the extra scene. Then it went away for awhile. In the most recent showing the scene was included again. This is not TCM’s decision as to what is included. They are merely going along with whatever version is being provided to them as part of the leasing process. In general there would be cases of “Is this restoration, or is this editing?” So far TCM has chosen in general not to give any information about film edits or other content prior to showing a film, unless the hosts happen to mention something. But you can imagine how much work this would be for the channel to specifically track, at a time where they are most interested in cutting costs and not adding to them. From a simplicity and cost perspective, it is in their interest to not go down that slope.
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Post by jamesjazzguitar on Mar 11, 2023 19:42:33 GMT
Funny joke, but it is a joke, since it would be illegal for TCM to show a film that wasn't in the public domain that TCM didn't lease from the leaseholder. Really James, I hate to spoil your "life of the party" moment here, but was pointing out there likely are copies to be obtained that were unedited. I have no doubt there are probably some "leaseholders" of THE FRENCH CONNECTION that have unedited copies who'll gladly lease them out for the right price. Sepiatone This is from cmovieviewer: "For The French Connection, the original version still exists on DVD and Blu-Ray, but Fox (Disney) seems to only be providing the edited version for broadcast.". So you're correct that there are secondary leaseholders ("secondary" in that a company like Blu_Ray was granted limited rights by the primary leaseholder Disney\Fox), of the film but most likely these secondary leaseholders can't lease their version but only sell it. Also, even if Blu-Ray could legally lease their unedited version of the film, why would they? Doing so would decrease the value of their holdings. I.e. if one wants the original, unedited version they now have to purchase it since the unedited version will no longer be broadcast. Once again, this is a case of follow-the-money.
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