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Post by I Love Melvin on Jun 15, 2023 23:17:56 GMT
It's not clear whether any of this is based on Mark Griffin's 2018 book, All That Heaven Allows, which went a long way in reviving interest in Rock as an actor as opposed to a tabloid story. That book also dealt openly with Rock's homosexuality and the intricacies of balancing a personal and professional life. The books which came out immediately after his death didn't fill in many blanks and there was a long period of time without much interest being shown in Rock's story, so Grifin's book was the fullest telling of his story to date I still sometimes hear people say how lamentable it is that he didn't have the "courage" to come out, but forcing that kind of modern judgmental perspective onto the era in which Rock spent his maturity is unproductive and, more importantly, completely unrealistic. Hopefully this film will help bring that point home and not merely exploit the public shame which was forced upon him. It's been in a few film festivals and now we'll (or at least MAX subscribers) get to see it for ourselves.
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Post by Guest on Jun 16, 2023 18:45:01 GMT
It's not clear whether any of this is based on Mark Griffin's 2018 book, All That Heaven Allows, which went a long way in reviving interest in Rock as an actor as opposed to a tabloid story. That book also dealt openly with Rock's homosexuality and the intricacies of balancing a personal and professional life. The books which came out immediately after his death didn't fill in many blanks and there was a long period of time without much interest being shown in Rock's story, so Grifin's book was the fullest telling of his story to date I still sometimes hear people say how lamentable it is that he didn't have the "courage" to come out, but forcing that kind of modern judgmental perspective onto the era in which Rock spent his maturity is unproductive and, more importantly, completely unrealistic. Hopefully this film will help bring that point home and not merely exploit the public shame which was forced upon him. It's been in a few film festivals and now we'll (or at least MAX subscribers) get to see it for ourselves. Looks interesting. Occasionally on tv shows from the 1960's you'll hear Rock Hudson's name dropped as the quintessential hunk. I agree with you about imposing a modern perspective on people's actions from previous eras. It's complicated and unproductive. I remember when Rock Hudson started looking thinner and sickly in the 1980s. It must have been terrible to be dealing with that and the public scrutiny over his private life.
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Post by kims on Jun 16, 2023 19:15:00 GMT
I love him in the comedies with Doris Day and with Gina Lollobrigida (COME SEPTEMBER)
I also agree about imposing modern perspectives on peoples' actions in a different era. When some documentaries do this, I think-wow, you really didn't do the research.
Hudson had a marriage of convenience to help cover his preference Imagine, you have to marry someone which society, at the time, accepts to keep your career, not live in the fringes of society? I think we've made some progress about acceptance.
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Post by I Love Melvin on Jun 16, 2023 21:06:07 GMT
I love him in the comedies with Doris Day and with Gina Lollobrigida (COME SEPTEMBER) I also agree about imposing modern perspectives on peoples' actions in a different era. When some documentaries do this, I think-wow, you really didn't do the research. Hudson had a marriage of convenience to help cover his preference Imagine, you have to marry someone which society, at the time, accepts to keep your career, not live in the fringes of society? I think we've made some progress about acceptance. It'll be interesting to see how the documentary covers the marriage. His wife was an employee of his agent Henry Willson, which led to a lot of speculation about the legitimacy of the marriage even at the time. She wrote a book after he died but many people seem to think she never came clean about the terms of the deal. TCM just showed Come September to honor Gina Lollobrigida after her death and it's still one of my favorites.
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Post by I Love Melvin on Jun 25, 2023 17:54:54 GMT
CBS Sunday Morning just covered the documentary, which premiers on MAX June 28. About half of the segment centers around the AIDS diagnosis and the aftermath. All that's important from a historical perspective, but I'm still hoping the doc itself will be more life-and-career-centric
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Post by I Love Melvin on Aug 5, 2023 23:36:17 GMT
This is probably the best review/recap I've seen, from the Breakfast All Day podcast with Alonso Duralde and Christy Lemire. He mentions Mark Rappaport's Rock Hudson's Home Movies (1992), which I would also recommend for its clever use of movie clips to piece together a story about the place of gay themes in mid-century movie history. Be aware that there are a couple of ads imbedded in this short 10-minute clip.
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Post by Guest on Aug 6, 2023 18:43:28 GMT
I remember Alonso Duralde and Christy Lemire used to review tv and films with Ben Mank on some YouTube weekly panel show several years ago. Probably before Ben became the big cheese at TCM.
Here's a question, Alonso in the above intro says gay men in Hollywood had to do certain things to fit in, including dating starlets and eventually getting married. I know the story of Hudson brief arranged marriage but did other actors do you this? Montgomery Clift, for example never got married. Just curious.
They mentioned a documentary about Wham and George Michael, saying he similarly had to hide his homosexuality to further his career. I can't say that was quite the same. I don't think it was a big secret about George Michael.
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Post by Guest on Aug 6, 2023 18:46:13 GMT
Dammit. Now I'm going to have this song in my head all day.
It is pretty catchy.
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Post by kims on Aug 6, 2023 23:07:59 GMT
Cole Porter married. Anthony Perkins married. Tab Hunter in the bio aired on TCM told about he was sent on dates with starlets including Natalie Woods and Debbie Reynolds. He even went on a date with a girl who won a contest for a date with him. In the 30's and 40's people were more closed mouth about their sexuality, as in it was nobody's business. Also studios protected the bigger stars. We may never know how many married for convenience, at this point many of the stories about those stars is guessing. For instance there is a story about Cary Grant and Randolph Scott because they lived together for a while. Leo Lerman, a journalist who did not hide that he was homosexual and named names in his journals and letters, says that Cary Grant flirted, but only flirted.
Maybe I'm odd, but finding out an actor was gay didn't affect my drooling. I was in love with their persona or a character they played. I was never going to meet them and I probably wasn't their type.
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Post by I Love Melvin on Aug 6, 2023 23:41:39 GMT
I remember Alonso Duralde and Christy Lemire used to review tv and films with Ben Mank on some YouTube weekly panel show several years ago. Probably before Ben became the big cheese at TCM. Here's a question, Alonso in the above intro says gay men in Hollywood had to do certain things to fit in, including dating starlets and eventually getting married. I know the story of Hudson brief arranged marriage but did other actors do you this? Montgomery Clift, for example never got married. Just curious. They mentioned a documentary about Wham and George Michael, saying he similarly had to hide his homosexuality to further his career. I can't say that was quite the same. I don't think it was a big secret about George Michael. Montgomery Clift was kind of an outlier in the industry, with a real independent streak, resulting in a refusal to sign a standard seven-year contract with any studio. He finally signed a three picture deal with Paramount, then later signed for three more, but never wanted to be tied to a studio. This was at a time when studios still felt they had a lot of say in the private lives of their stars, including the right to pressure gay actors into marrying if fans or the press were wondering too much. Tab Hunter told in his book about Jack Warner telling him after Confidential broke the story about Tab at a "limp-wristed pajama party" in earlier days that Tab should just let it pass and not acknowledge it, which was frankly an unusually tolerant attitude, especially from a bully like Warner. But in general the pressure to marry was so real that actors often just fell in line without even having to be told. There's a famous story about William Haines, a gay silent star who successfully transitioned to sound films and was at one time a big MGM star, who basically told Louis B. Mayer to go f*** himself and walked away when Mayer told him to dump his long-time partner Jimmy Shields and get married after a scandal involving the two of them. He became an interior decorator with a huge Hollywood clientele (including Mayer's wife). But he and Clift were exceptions; generally gay actors went on all the studio-arranged dates and played the game because the alternative was no career. Studios also had a well-oiled machine to squelch scandals, which was an added incentive to cooperate in order to stay viable in the industry. The WHAM! documentary they mentioned is new from Netflix. The point she made was that it was remarkable how little things had changed because people in the public eye still couldn't come out with any kind of confidence that they'd still have a career. We think of Elton John now as super-gay but he took many years to come out for the same reason.
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Post by Guest on Aug 7, 2023 0:42:41 GMT
Thanks for the responses. Interesting discussion. I remember Anthony Perkins was married but it wasn't "arranged" was it? He married Berry Berenson in 1973 long after the studio machine would have had a stronghold over his life. They also had kids so that seems much different from the fabricated arrangement of Hudson.
Cary Grant was married several times and wanted to marry Sophia Loren so that, to me, always seemed more rumor about Randolph Scott than fact. I know not everyone here agrees.
I see your point, I Love Melvin, about not being able to come out publicly but I don't think anyone was surprised to learn that people like Elton John or George Michael were gay. Same with Rosie O'Donnell or Ellen. But that, as you point out, is different from living it out in the open.
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Post by I Love Melvin on Aug 7, 2023 15:58:08 GMT
Again going back to Tab Hunter, he wrote in his book (co-written by Eddie Muller, by the way) that Tony was always ambivalent and touchy about his sexuality, which was one of the reasons they didn't fare all that well as a couple. In the book and in the documentary Tab Hunter Confidential (2015) actress Venetia Stevenson admitted to being a beard for the couple on public dates and said basically the same thing about Tony, that he wasn't ever able to really relax into it. He later married and fathered a family and I'm not about to speculate one way or the other what that was about, other than to say it seemed to fill a personal need. To each his own. You're probably right that not a lot of people were surprised to find out that Elton, Rosie, Ellen, etc. were gay, but we have to remember that this was a number of decades after the time we're talking about and well after the time of Stonewall. Public opinion had slowly changed, but in the 1950's homosexuality was both illegal and a mental illness as far as the public was concerned. Gay people weren't just doing something "nasty" and immoral, they were committing a crime and every major movie studio had morality clauses in their contracts and were prepared to enforce them. EDIT: Actually, I take that back. Lots of people were surprised. Ellen lost a lot of her sponsors, notably Wendy's, and the show was cancelled within a year, leaving her without much of a career for a good while. Many people rallied but an equal number or more withdrew their support. It really wasn't until the new millennium that the logjam of intolerance started to break up and people like Ellen and Elton were able to have careers on their own terms.
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Post by kims on Aug 7, 2023 18:43:09 GMT
I'll add another factor: people didn't use to talk about their sexuality, even in my college days. It didn't seem to be as important to our identity. There were no coed dorms when I attended college. The subject didn't come up directly. Our friends included homosexuals, but their sexuality was more our suspicions than confirmed. It maybe hard to believe for people younger than me to believe, but we didn't sit around obsessing about sex as you see on FRIENDS.
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