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Post by marysara1 on May 21, 2023 13:48:38 GMT
What about Vivian Leigh and Claudette Colbert? They both played Cleo. Neither one looks Egyptian to me.
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Post by vannorden on May 21, 2023 21:10:00 GMT
What about Vivian Leigh and Claudette Colbert? They both played Cleo. Neither one looks Egyptian to me. Because Cleopatra was not an Egyptian, she was part of the Ptolemaic dynasty, which was Macedonian Greek. If mixed with anything, she likely had Iranian ancestry from the Seleucid dynasty that ruled over the former Achaemenid Persian Empire, but no scholarly evidence supports that. Also, isn't Vivien Leigh's father rumored to have had Iranian and Armenian roots or has that been long debunked? |
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Post by vannorden on May 21, 2023 22:05:33 GMT
I have to confess, at first I was upset when I heard that Rami Malek was going to play Freddie Mercury. I didn't think it was right for an Egyptian to play a Parsi (i.e. Indian Zoroastrian). Parsis are Indians of Persian lineage who fled Persia/Iran, due to the Arab conquest and forced conversions. But then I learned that Malek is a Copt, i.e. an Egyptian Christian, another group that has been persecuted by Moslems. So I decided it was ok for Rami Malek to play Freddie Mercury.
I consider the near-wipeout of the Zoroastrian religion in Iran to be one of the great tragedies of world history.
Well said! The Zoroastrian period of Iranian history represents one of the most influential civilizations (not to undermine the Safavid period), as they influenced Greek Thought and made several advancements in architecture, literature, mathematics, medicine, military, etc. Luckily, some of their pre-Islamic practices, such as Nowruz and Chaharshanbe Suri (Jumping Fire Festival), live on. Yet much of their culture is still deeply rooted in Zoroastrianism, even under the guise of Shia Islam. That said, how ghastly is the portrayal of Iranians in Hollywood? No matter ancient history or the present day that is one area they seem to habitually blunder. |
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Post by kims on May 21, 2023 22:13:51 GMT
a black actress can play Cleo. It's not any different from European actresses playing Cleo. The controversy for me is that the Netflix documentary claimed she was African and then the producers blamed the failure of the show on white supremacy. I don't see the claim of Cleo being black is a left issue. It is a revisionist issue and there are revisions by the left, the right and the middle. I blame lack of viewership on the reason I didn't watch. The overwhelming evidence, including from the Egyptian Antiquities leaders, and from contemporary Roman and Greek accounts, Cleo was white skinned. In the 5000 years of Pharaohs, there were black Pharaohs, but Cleo wasn't one. I wonder why the producers chose not to make a documentary about them?
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Post by sepiatone on May 22, 2023 15:46:13 GMT
a black actress can play Cleo. It's not any different from European actresses playing Cleo. The controversy for me is that the Netflix documentary claimed she was African and then the producers blamed the failure of the show on white supremacy. I don't see the claim of Cleo being black is a left issue. It is a revisionist issue and there are revisions by the left, the right and the middle. I blame lack of viewership on the reason I didn't watch. The overwhelming evidence, including from the Egyptian Antiquities leaders, and from contemporary Roman and Greek accounts, Cleo was white skinned. In the 5000 years of Pharaohs, there were black Pharaohs, but Cleo wasn't one. I wonder why the producers chose not to make a documentary about them? Probably because they wanted to make a movie intended to entertain and not an historical tutorial about ancient people the general public never heard of. And anyway...... What could possibly be the beef around here? The people on this forum are well aware of how the movie industry has always worked. If Mexican actors can play Arabs, and Polish Jews can play Mexicans, And Swedes can play Chinese detectives, what's the big deal about an African-American actress playing Cleopatra? Which reminds me...... A nephew of mine once had a relationship with a young lady who was Egyptian. She would amusingly claim that since Egypt was in the African continent, that she was African-American.  Others may quip that since she was born in Detroit, that alone was enough to make her African-American.  Sepiatone |
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Post by Swithin on May 22, 2023 15:53:40 GMT
I have to confess, at first I was upset when I heard that Rami Malek was going to play Freddie Mercury. I didn't think it was right for an Egyptian to play a Parsi (i.e. Indian Zoroastrian). Parsis are Indians of Persian lineage who fled Persia/Iran, due to the Arab conquest and forced conversions. But then I learned that Malek is a Copt, i.e. an Egyptian Christian, another group that has been persecuted by Moslems. So I decided it was ok for Rami Malek to play Freddie Mercury.
I consider the near-wipeout of the Zoroastrian religion in Iran to be one of the great tragedies of world history.
Well said! The Zoroastrian period of Iranian history represents one of the most influential civilizations (not to undermine the Safavid period), as they influenced Greek Thought and made several advancements in architecture, literature, mathematics, medicine, military, etc. Luckily, some of their pre-Islamic practices, such as Nowruz and Chaharshanbe Suri (Jumping Fire Festival), live on. Yet much of their culture is still deeply rooted in Zoroastrianism, even under the guise of Shia Islam. That said, how ghastly is the portrayal of Iranians in Hollywood? No matter ancient history or the present day that is one area they seem to habitually blunder. Zoroastrian religion had a considerable influence on Christian theology as well. Concepts of last judgement, of the afterlife, of angels and the devil, etc., come from Zoroastrianism. The word "Paradise" is of Iranian origin. |
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Post by sepiatone on May 22, 2023 16:03:23 GMT
That's all pretty interesting. I've always thought before it was known as Iran, it was Persia.
Sepiatone
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Post by kims on May 22, 2023 17:59:42 GMT
a black actress can play Cleo. It's not any different from European actresses playing Cleo. The controversy for me is that the Netflix documentary claimed she was African and then the producers blamed the failure of the show on white supremacy. I don't see the claim of Cleo being black is a left issue. It is a revisionist issue and there are revisions by the left, the right and the middle. I blame lack of viewership on the reason I didn't watch. The overwhelming evidence, including from the Egyptian Antiquities leaders, and from contemporary Roman and Greek accounts, Cleo was white skinned. In the 5000 years of Pharaohs, there were black Pharaohs, but Cleo wasn't one. I wonder why the producers chose not to make a documentary about them? Probably because they wanted to make a movie intended to entertain and not an historical tutorial about ancient people the general public never heard of. And anyway...... What could possibly be the beef around here? The people on this forum are well aware of how the movie industry has always worked. If Mexican actors can play Arabs, and Polish Jews can play Mexicans, And Swedes can play Chinese detectives, what's the big deal about an African-American actress playing Cleopatra? Which reminds me...... A nephew of mine once had a relationship with a young lady who was Egyptian. She would amusingly claim that since Egypt was in the African continent, that she was African-American. Others may quip that since she was born in Detroit, that alone was enough to make her African-American. Sepiatone The beef is: it was not a movie, it was a documentary |
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Post by sepiatone on May 23, 2023 15:55:10 GMT
It's actually called a "docudrama", which means there's some allowance for "dramatic license" in their creation. A true documentary wouldn't have actors or actresses performing scripted "re-enactments" of historical events.
Sepiatone
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Post by kims on May 23, 2023 22:43:12 GMT
SCA Secretary General Mostafa Waziri addressed the charges of “historical falsification” in the statement. “The appearance of the heroine is a falsification of Egyptian history and a blatant historical fallacy, especially since the film is classified as a documentary film and not a dramatic work, which requires those in charge of its production to investigate accuracy and rely on historical and scientific facts to ensure that history and civilizations are not falsified,” he said. Wazari added that statues and depictions on coins of the queen pointed to her having Hellenistic features, and “fair skin, drawn nose and thin lips”. He denied that the recent backlash in Egypt against the casting of James in the role of Cleopatra was due to racist attitudes towards people of African origin. This is from: deadline.com/2023/04/egypt-council-of-antiquitie-row-netflix-cleopatra-row-1235340750/I still leave it to the Egyptians to settle the issue. |
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Post by sepiatone on May 24, 2023 14:49:28 GMT
But I've seen a statue years ago of Robert E.Lee that was all black. What would Wazari make of that? That Robert E. Lee was black? And what about all those "artist conceptions" of Jesus in which he looked Spanish, Italian, French or whichever ethnicity the artist who painted the image was? Statues and coins. Yep. There's the "proof".  Sepiatone |
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Post by jamesjazzguitar on May 24, 2023 18:45:09 GMT
But I've seen a statue years ago of Robert E.Lee that was all black. What would Wazari make of that? That Robert E. Lee was black? And what about all those "artist conceptions" of Jesus in which he looked Spanish, Italian, French or whichever ethnicity the artist who painted the image was? Statues and coins. Yep. There's the "proof". Sepiatone You make some good points here. What gets me is that anyone would care, one-way-or-the-other. Why can't people just accept "we don't really know" and move on from there. But both side care. They really care and feel it is important to their "history" or identity. Sad in so many ways. |
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Post by kims on May 24, 2023 20:08:04 GMT
The Netflix show claims Cleo was black. No prob who portrayed Cleo. It's a prob for the Egyptians to say she was black. They do know. Officials of the Egyptian Department of Antiquities are miffed. For decades European excavators (frequently early digs were done by people without cultural or scientific credentials) fit what they found to their own time period's thinking. I agree with the Dept. of Antiquities to the extent that it is Egypt's history. They know better than people with no credentials.
I don't think Hamilton is black because of the musical. I have a problem if someone tries to convince people that Lincoln was Chinese or Frederick Douglas was white. Not a prob if that is what they were, but rewriting to suit my desires is a no-no.
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Post by jamesjazzguitar on May 24, 2023 20:43:15 GMT
The Netflix show claims Cleo was black. No prob who portrayed Cleo. It's a prob for the Egyptians to say she was black. They do know. Officials of the Egyptian Department of Antiquities are miffed. For decades European excavators (frequently early digs were done by people without cultural or scientific credentials) fit what they found to their own time period's thinking. I agree with the Dept. of Antiquities to the extent that it is Egypt's history. They know better than people with no credentials. I don't think Hamilton is black because of the musical. I have a problem if someone tries to convince people that Lincoln was Chinese or Frederick Douglas was white. Not a prob if that is what they were, but rewriting to suit my desires is a no-no. I don't agree anyone knows for sure. They are just speculating. Most likely Cleo was mix-raced. As it relates to the color of her skin (i.e., NOT race which doesn't exist as a science in the first place but only as a social concept) there is no way to know what her actual skin color was. The "they" in "They do know" is highly biased. Such folks are known for making things up to fit their biases. As I said before, why anyone would care, one way or the other, thousands of years later, is folly. |
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Post by kims on May 25, 2023 0:02:45 GMT
Roman and Greek writers who saw Cleo write that she was white. Maybe they made it up to fit their biases.
285 bce Ptolemy I became pharaoh and continued the Egyptian practice of the pharaoh marrying his sister to keep the royal blood pure. Maybe all those ancient writings documenting this fit their biases.
And maybe it is folly that Egyptians care about their history.
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Others may quip that since she was born in Detroit, that alone was enough to make her African-American. 
