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Post by kims on May 1, 2023 0:43:16 GMT
The Hollywood studio system depended on its stars to lose their privacy as part of its business model to sell tickets. And the studios controlled the publicity. After the studio system all the fan magazines fought for their lives to keep the invasion of stars' privacy of importance to fans. My opinion is let there be privacy. But if you want to know more about sexual orientation of the stars, read Leo Lerman's memoirs THE GRAND SURPRISE. He was openly gay when it just wasn't done. He socialized with all the celebrities 1940's on. Hopefully some will read the book to learn the challenges he faced and about the world of entertainment back in the day.
Personally, I have a couple of actors I have fantasized about-well, that was hard to admit coming from my era. It doesn't matter what their preferences were in private, I was probably more in love with the characters they played. Outing dead people, I don't understand how it helps them or what I get by knowing.
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Post by jamesjazzguitar on May 1, 2023 1:01:19 GMT
When I mentioned Kate and Phyllis earlier, it was not gossip. A friend of mine who is a film professor on the east coast, an out gay man, had been invited to Kate and Phyllis' home more than once when he was younger. He showed me a letter that Kate had written for him, to help him get a job when he was in his 20s. He said that she was gay and Phyllis was her companion. I don't see any reason for him to have made that up.
When I started researching the couple's relationship, I found articles that had mentioned them over the years (and photos) which alluded to the true nature of their relationship. Phyllis did assist Kate, but it seems they sort of hid behind her 'job' for Kate to remain closeted about the fact they were intimate and not just employer and employee. If TCM would have your film professor friend on as a guest host and anyone else that was actually "in the know", then I would welcome such a presentation. But that is not likely to happen; What TCM would likely present would just be the same tiresome, unsubstantiated rumors and I see little to no value in presenting such rumors.
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Post by topbilled on May 1, 2023 1:20:13 GMT
I think there is a need for some of the deceased stars to be outed. They were kept in the closet during their lifetime and in my opinion it is patently ridiculous for them to still be kept in the closet long after their deaths, just because it will make homophobic, biphobic and transphobic people more 'comfortable' watching their films.
It was either last summer or the summer before, can't remember exactly when, that TCM did a series in June on LGBTQ directors. And they included Charles Laughton in that group with a screening of THE NIGHT OF THE HUNTER. For years it has been speculated Laughton was gay, but people like Maureen O'Hara vehemently denied it. Yet, there TCM was 'outing' him. So at some point, it becomes fair game and history is revised to classify various individuals as LGBTQ.
When I mentioned Kate and Phyllis earlier, it was not gossip. A friend of mine who is a film professor on the east coast, an out gay man, had been invited to Kate and Phyllis' home more than once when he was younger. He showed me a letter that Kate had written for him, to help him get a job when he was in his 20s. He said that she was gay and Phyllis was her companion. I don't see any reason for him to have made that up.
When I started researching the couple's relationship, I found articles that had mentioned them over the years (and photos) which alluded to the true nature of their relationship. Phyllis did assist Kate, but it seems they sort of hid behind her 'job' for Kate to remain closeted about the fact they were intimate and not just employer and employee.
I know it kind of shatters the lovely P.R. myths about Kate and Spence...but I am sure people can get over that. My guess is that Kate and Spence were merely pals who got on great and enjoyed working together. Also, I would say that they helped hide each others' secrets. And studio P.R. aided those efforts considerably. But who should decide if someone dead should be "outed" ? What if you are wrong? What if the person really did not want that revealed? There are rumors about current stars being closeted. Why not out them? They can then speak to their experiences, where deceased stars cannot. They're dead, it's not going to hurt them to out them after their death. And it may help the living, who need examples to look to. There really isn't anything you or anyone can do to stop people from being outed. None of us could stop TCM including Charles Laughton in a month-long look at films by LGBTQ directors. The world did not stop turning. Laughton's legacy was not blemished. Time to stop "over protecting" on this issue. Usually the ones who claim they are defending a dead performer's reputation are just exercising phobia because it threatens their understanding of the world when more people are not identified as hetero-normal.
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Post by sewhite2000 on May 1, 2023 1:27:21 GMT
There is a documentary coming out, today apparently, that purports to put the lie to the Tracy-Hepburn affair. Seems highly unlikely TCM would have it by June. It appears to focus mainly on the self-described "pimp", Scotty Bowers, who's now in his 90s and who also alleged the affair beteen Cary Grant and Randolph Scott and who further alleges he personally arranged all kinds of same sex hookups for various movie stars and celebrities (including both the Duke of Windsor - who, legend has it, gave up his throne to marry a divorced American - and his wife). I am unaware if either Bowers' memoirs or the documentary mention by name the "secretary" TopBilled references. Bowers also says Tracy was gay. www.mercurynews.com/2018/08/09/katharine-hepburn-and-spencer-tracy-concocted-an-affair-to-stay-in-the-closet-hollywood-hustler-dishes-in-new-film/
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Post by topbilled on May 1, 2023 1:34:13 GMT
When I mentioned Kate and Phyllis earlier, it was not gossip. A friend of mine who is a film professor on the east coast, an out gay man, had been invited to Kate and Phyllis' home more than once when he was younger. He showed me a letter that Kate had written for him, to help him get a job when he was in his 20s. He said that she was gay and Phyllis was her companion. I don't see any reason for him to have made that up.
When I started researching the couple's relationship, I found articles that had mentioned them over the years (and photos) which alluded to the true nature of their relationship. Phyllis did assist Kate, but it seems they sort of hid behind her 'job' for Kate to remain closeted about the fact they were intimate and not just employer and employee. If TCM would have your film professor friend on as a guest host and anyone else that was actually "in the know", then I would welcome such a presentation. But that is not likely to happen; What TCM would likely present would just be the same tiresome, unsubstantiated rumors and I see little to no value in presenting such rumors. The reason he and I became friends is because he had seen some of my posts on the TCM site about Doris Day after she died. He knew Doris, and he actually taught a college class on musical comedy. He reached out to me on the side to go into detail about things I mentioned in my posts.
This led to his sharing some wonderful photos of him and Doris. He had first met Doris in the mid-70s, right after she finished doing her sitcom. One of the photos, which was very cute, was him wearing a button that Doris gave him (and she was wearing one also) that said 'I love cats and dogs.' She became such a real person to me through his stories and photos.
When he later started to mention Kate, that was kind of an added 'bonus' if you will.
***
Re: appearing on TCM..or sharing stories about stars with TCM...About ten years ago, I had befriended a guy on the old IMDb message boards (before those were taken down). The guy was a nurse who had worked as a caregiver at the Motion Picture rest home in Woodland Hills, whatever it is called. He had taken care of Iris Adrian in her last days, and she had some interesting stories about working with Joan Crawford on the set of FLAMINGO ROAD.
According to this guy, Iris said that Crawford was very good to people who were loyal to her. And she would invite her loyal costars to her home for swimming parties, on the weekends when they weren't shooting scenes, and then after the picture wrapped, she would host a cast party.
Iris appeared in a lot of films, usually bit or small supporting parts...but she had worked with practically everyone in Hollywood during the 40s, 50s and 60s. So she had lots of stories about the biggest stars.
Anyway, this guy said that he had met with someone who worked at TCM who wanted to interview him...but he turned down the chance, because he felt that it wouldn't be right to try and 'cash in' on what his now deceased patients like Iris Adrian had told him in their final days.
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Post by sewhite2000 on May 1, 2023 1:46:29 GMT
A slightly contrarian view from a website called Queer Places. Collier, I should say, refers to Constance Collier, a British stage actress. Wilbourn was her "secretary" for 30 years until Collier's death in 1955. Hepburn, the website says, was a friend and traveling companion of both women, and within two years of Collier's death, Wilbourn was working full time for Hepburn. Okay, here's the quote:
Hepburn and Wilbourn were not, as some have presumed, lovers. Though Wilbourn was with Hepburn from sunrise until late at night, she maintained her own apartment on East Seventy-second Street, which, at least for a time, she shared with another woman. When it came to the word lesbian, Wilbourn could be as touchy as Laura Barney Harding. Introducing Wilbourn to Scott Berg, Hepburn called her “my Alice B. Toklas,” prompting great umbrage from Wilbourn, who complained the description made her sound like “an old lesbian.” Hepburn was amused. “You’re not what, dearie, old or a lesbian?”
“Neither,” Wilbourn insisted. Those who remembered her relationship with Collier, however, thought she may have been protesting too much.
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Post by sewhite2000 on May 1, 2023 1:50:01 GMT
I feel like I'm partially to blame for hijacking this thread and sending it relatively far away from its original intent (though we are talking about the June SOTM). What I really want to say is I hope the full June schedule is available soon!
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Post by William Haines on May 1, 2023 3:23:07 GMT
But who should decide if someone dead should be "outed" ? What if you are wrong? What if the person really did not want that revealed? There are rumors about current stars being closeted. Why not out them? They can then speak to their experiences, where deceased stars cannot. They're dead, it's not going to hurt them to out them after their death. And it may help the living, who need examples to look to. There really isn't anything you or anyone can do to stop people from being outed. None of us could stop TCM including Charles Laughton in a month-long look at films by LGBTQ directors. The world did not stop turning. Laughton's legacy was not blemished. Time to stop "over protecting" on this issue. Usually the ones who claim they are defending a dead performer's reputation are just exercising phobia because it threatens their understanding of the world when more people are not identified as hetero-normal.Quite the leap, TB. This sort of argument is a way to shame or threaten people who disagree with "outing." They must be homophobic. Again, what if you out someone and it's not true? They aren't around to confirm or dispute it. That documentary about Scotty and the Secret and History of History, I don't believe that he didn't embellish it to sell books or the movie. If " outing" someone is helpful why not out a star living today? Then we could hear from that person. That would be more helpful than outing someone who has been long dead and many don't even remember. I've heard rumors about a few current big name stars.
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Post by Christine on May 1, 2023 9:21:52 GMT
I disagree, TCM does Birthday tributes all the time. I am just a huge fan of Dean Martin! He was very talented and in life did not showboat himself like many others in Hollywood. That was just his style, so I guess I am just wanting his body of work, his talent and his charm to always be remembered for younger audiences.
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Post by jamesjazzguitar on May 1, 2023 15:58:04 GMT
I disagree, TCM does Birthday tributes all the time. I am just a huge fan of Dean Martin! He was very talented and in life did not showboat himself like many others in Hollywood. That was just his style, so I guess I am just wanting his body of work, his talent and his charm to always be remembered for younger audiences. How many TCM viewers feel the same way about other actors? Tens of thousands, which would mean a birthday tribute for someone at least every other day. Again, this is why I'm glad TCM doesn't do many such tributes unless it is an anniversary birthday. E.g. TCM could have a tribute for Glenn Ford and Danielle Darrieux today. Even if TCM was to do such a tribute it wouldn't help many younger people become aware of Martin since there are not that many mostly-watch-TCM viewers in their demographic.
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Post by jamesjazzguitar on May 1, 2023 16:47:11 GMT
All I know is that if TCM doesn't show Sylvia Scarlett that month, the programmers are clueless.
Also show Pat and Mike because everyone knows the real love story was between the agent and the boxer.
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Post by alexja41816 on May 1, 2023 23:53:45 GMT
So far so good with the schedule! I know Katharine Hepburn made a lot of movies and looks like some I've never seen. I've read the play Long Day's Journey into Night and actually wrote a paper for a theatre class in college on that play & another play discussing addiction. Would be good to see the movie and see how it compares to the play. Overall June looks to be a better month with less repeats and more premieres than some of the other months have been so far.
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Post by sewhite2000 on May 2, 2023 0:15:47 GMT
I was working, but as i recall from regurgitating the schedule online , daytime today I think was dedicated to Glenn Ford. But, yeah, pretty much every day is some star's birthday, right? I'm sure TCM has spotlighted Martin's birthday sometime in their 29 years of existence.
I just looked at the June schedule for about 15 seconds before I closed it out in disgust when I realized how incomplete it was. Looks like early Hepburn tribute nights are very heavy on her RKO work in the '30s. I want to say I saw Sylvia Scarlet listed, but I'm not 100 per cent sure.
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Post by William Haines on May 4, 2023 0:02:01 GMT
Just saw this posted at the other site about a possible and very sensible reason Kate Hepburn is being honored next month:
"June marks 20 years since she passed away (June 29,2003)"
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Post by sewhite2000 on May 7, 2023 3:01:49 GMT
So ... TCM will never release the full June schedule, until it's June at least. I get it.
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