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Post by Fading Fast on Sept 21, 2024 7:06:44 GMT
What a fantastic explanation, thank you. I love learning these details (you've taught me so much - I'll never look at Swiss dots and polka dots casually ever again). The pictures here are awesome as they perfectly complement your very clear and detailed explanation. I have some sweaters with "petersham," but never knew that's what it is called. My sweaters with petersham, like the one in the picture, look like the petersham is a silk grosgrain, but that's just a guess. Thank you again for the wonderful explanation.
Grosgrain is named for the weave. Both what we call grosgrain ribbon and petersham ribbon are the grosgrain weave, but they are different because of their edges.
Grosgrain weave is accomplished by using a heavier weight weft on a lighter weight warp to achieve the familiar texture. Unlike a satin ribbon, grosgrain looks the same on both sides. Occasionally you might also see this called a "corded" weave.
Petersham ribbon has a sawtooth edge. (Ribbon photos courtesy of petershams.com, a UK online millinery supplier. It's fun to snoop around their site, if you're so inclined.)
Petersham is simply woven back and forth without wrapping the end warp threads on each pass. This is what creates what some call an unfinished edge. You might also see it called a picot edge. Because the edges are unstabilized in this way, petersham is easy to manipulate around curves. Though the ribbon still provides stability, it also retains flexibility, making it a beautiful choice for these sweater facings, as hem bindings, or waistband facings. It is also sometimes used on the interiors of corsetry or multi-pieced fitted bodices, such as shirtwaists or gowns.
In this photo, petersham ribbon is added to the garment as a waist stay. This is important to help the garment keep its shape. Even though this is a light weight dress, the stay will take some of the pressure off the long shaping darts. Petersham would be much more comfortable here than grosgrain. (And might I add – what lovely Hong Kong finished seams! I love to see garments made with this level of care.)
Petersham can be used as surface embellishments as well, and was popular on 19th century gowns when ruched in all-over meandering patterns or swirled into dimensional rosettes. Petersham makes beautiful hat bands.
Grosgrain ribbon has a straight edge.
Grosgrain is woven with each pass wrapping around the end warp threads, creating a selvedge. This edge is sturdy and unyielding, adding additional strength. Because of this difference, grosgrain is difficult to form around curves. Frankly, it’s next to impossible to do and make it look good unless the curve is a very gentle one. Even then, it is difficult to apply without puckers or edges that float slightly above the fabric rather than sitting next to it.
Here is a circa 1950s cashmere sweater decorated with grosgrain and embroidered poodles.
See how puckery it is? Those cuffs just make me sad. The ribbon is too set in its ways to give and move with the knitted fabric. Notice also how the ribbon is folded over at the neck edge to head around the collar (and the back view of this sweater shows it coming into a point at the back). These things really illustrate how unsuitable grosgrain is for anything other than straight lines.
Grosgrain is sometimes used as a hem tape, but only if the hem is straight, no flare. It also is sometimes used as a waist tape (rather than twill) in corsetry and bodices.
Here is a reproduction gown bodice which employs a grosgrain waist tape. In this instance, because the bodice is closely fitted, multi-pieced, and boned, the sturdiness of grosgrain is a great choice. Notice at the neck edge, over where the stand up lace is attached to the garment, this seamstress also used petersham. Super!
Grosgrain can be used as surface embellishment in straight line applications, such as a tuxedo braid for the man who prefers a more matte appearance than satin offers. Because of its strength, heavy duty grosgrain is used for cargo and packing webbing as it resists longitudinal stretch. It is also used in safety tape for high-visibility applications such as on firefighter apparel, and milspec grosgrain is used for reinforcement, ties, and binding purposes.
One thing I did, I guess the word would be intuit, is that there are very talented tailors/seamstresses who clearly understand how garments are made and others who are just people who can do the basic things. A good tailor can do so much with a garment versus the basic guy/girl. Now, with your help, I'm beginning to understand all the knowledge the good ones had to possess and why they could do "magic" with alterations.
Thank you once again for an incredible post. Last thought, as men's suits go from being regular wear for many men to special-occasion attire (and not even that, often), the number of tailors who truly understand their construction has plummeted over the past twenty years. |
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Post by BunnyWhit on Sept 21, 2024 18:12:42 GMT
Thank you once again, FadingFast. I am glad it was interesting for you. Often I worry that others will think I'm being a know-it-all when I make a long post about some weird, tiny thing, but I truly only do it because I just love it, and I'm always excited to share my small amount of knowledge with others. (When I was teaching I typically was the most excited person in the room, which always disappointed me and came to hurt my feelings......but it was their loss!) You are so generous with your thoughts, and this is just my little way of giving it back. 
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Like you, I fear for the future of tailoring. The greats are gone or going. I love how the really talented tailors can look at a person and know so much about them. Understanding human anatomy and motion are not only assets but necessities to being really good at making garments fit well and feel good. Heck, the greats can tell you what you have in your pockets!
I confess that when I drive by the dry cleaning stores that have a "tailor" sign, I shake my head. Around here, they mostly can sew on a button or raise a hem, but I feel badly for anyone who has to resort to that. Sure, not everyone can do it or wants to do it, but if the cleaner's hem that my dad had done on his last pair of trousers is any indication of the majority of the work coming out of those shops, well then.....yikes! I didn't know he'd had that done until after the fact, and I gave him an earful for not letting me do it. It would only have cost him a hug!
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Post by dianedebuda on Sept 23, 2024 16:15:06 GMT
Often I worry that others will think I'm being a know-it-all when I make a long post about some weird, tiny thing, but I truly only do it because I just love it, and I'm always excited to share my small amount of knowledge with others. |
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Post by BunnyWhit on Sept 24, 2024 0:46:19 GMT
Often I worry that others will think I'm being a know-it-all when I make a long post about some weird, tiny thing, but I truly only do it because I just love it, and I'm always excited to share my small amount of knowledge with others. |
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Post by NoShear on Sept 24, 2024 12:48:08 GMT
Brocade, BunnyWhit... A gorgeous sample is seen in The Kids Are Alright (1979):  |
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Post by Fading Fast on Sept 25, 2024 9:49:12 GMT
I just posted comments on the enjoyable 1932 movie "Shanghai Express" (comments here: "Shanghai Express"), but wanted to note in this thread star Marlene Dietrich's incredible wardrobe as seen below. My favorite article of them all are the black and white gloves (see the last two pics) that I bet BunnyWhit will like, too. I imagine it's no easy feat to create them.
    
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Post by I Love Melvin on Sept 25, 2024 11:31:00 GMT
I love that Dietrich's wardrobe (one of her best ever) was outfitting her for a ride on a broken-down train through a war-torn countryside. Didn't matter; it's what the fans wanted. And I wonder if Bunny could tell us how on earth you could pack something like that feathered getup in a trunk or suitcase. I read your write-up and I agree that there's a classic film behind the (stunning) wardrobe.
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Post by kims on Sept 25, 2024 15:10:53 GMT
If I may interrupt and ask for some fashion advice. Tropical Storm Helene is moving my way, mandatory evacs already ordered for the shoreline. Once Helene gets closer, there will be no going outside. But is there anyway, after the storm and performing yard cleanup, to have a modicum of style in 100% humidity, plus ninety degrees, slopping around in mud?
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Post by christine on Sept 25, 2024 15:56:32 GMT
Kims - I'm trying to send as many good vibes your way as I can - hoping for your safety and well-being!!! ❤
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Post by NoShear on Sept 25, 2024 17:32:36 GMT
If I may interrupt and ask for some fashion advice. Tropical Storm Helene is moving my way, mandatory evacs already ordered for the shoreline. Once Helene gets closer, there will be no going outside. But is there anyway, after the storm and performing yard cleanup, to have a modicum of style in 100% humidity, plus ninety degrees, slopping around in mud? Whatever your wardrobe choices, kims, hope you weather it totally safe 'n sound... |
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Post by I Love Melvin on Sept 25, 2024 23:13:30 GMT
If I may interrupt and ask for some fashion advice. Tropical Storm Helene is moving my way, mandatory evacs already ordered for the shoreline. Once Helene gets closer, there will be no going outside. But is there anyway, after the storm and performing yard cleanup, to have a modicum of style in 100% humidity, plus ninety degrees, slopping around in mud? First of all, you're going to need pristine white boots like Jane Wyman wore in Lucy Gallant (1955) to walk in the muddy streets of the western town she got stranded in. I wish I could find better pictures, but you get the idea. I applaud you for taking the matter of appropriate clothing so seriously. But back to reality, ditto to the above sentiments about staying safe.   |
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Post by BunnyWhit on Sept 26, 2024 1:28:50 GMT
It sounds much too scary to sing through, kims, but perhaps yellow is your color?
Stay safe!
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Post by BunnyWhit on Sept 27, 2024 2:44:48 GMT
I must admit that tailoring and sewing is Greek to me, but I really enjoy seeing the costume photos from movies, and the additional information and details from all of you, especially BunnyWhit  It's very fascinating to me when someone knows a lot about something I do not; I love hearing people share their knowledge and passions. Thanks for this thread, Bunny! Thanks nickandnora34! I'm so pleased that everyone has fun with this thread. That was my hope from the start! |
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Post by NoShear on Sept 27, 2024 13:59:03 GMT
If I may interrupt and ask for some fashion advice. Tropical Storm Helene is moving my way, mandatory evacs already ordered for the shoreline. Once Helene gets closer, there will be no going outside. But is there anyway, after the storm and performing yard cleanup, to have a modicum of style in 100% humidity, plus ninety degrees, slopping around in mud? kims, wondering if you're OK... |
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It's very fascinating to me when someone knows a lot about something I do not; I love hearing people share their knowledge and passions. Thanks for this thread, Bunny!