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Post by Andrea Doria on Mar 22, 2023 21:37:31 GMT
I've really enjoyed all that Topbilled and Fading Fast had to say about the movie, but I strongly disagree with both of you on one point.
Sam did not have an affair with Edith (Mary Astor.) First, Fran asks Sam for a divorce so she can marry the young titled man and you can see that Sam doesn't want it at all, the last thing he says to her as his train pulls away is, "Have I told you today that I adore you?" For a long time he was ready and willing to get back with her and to forgive everything.
Then, after a long lonely period he runs into Edith and she invites him to stay with her for a while as her guest. She mentions rest, fishing, and swimming.
Sam says: "It sounds wonderful, but what will the neighbors think?"
Edith says: Being Italians, they think a great deal.
But, that doesn't mean it would have to be so! Or, that I'd have it so even if you wanted it so.
This is how Edith has managed to live and travel alone and still keep her reputation and self-respect. She has a firm rule for herself to not let any friendships cross the line she has drawn for herself. I don't think they did anything but have fun, she was waiting for marriage and he knew that.
I think all this is part of Sam's sudden decision on the ship to go back to Edith. Fran was demonstrating her shallowness in acting like her adultery was no big deal and saying that Sam was as much to blame for their problems as she was. The contrast in the morals of the two women jumped out at him, even though Fran's beauty had made him "adore" her for 20 years. He was finally seeing her less beautiful inner qualities.
I think this might have all been clearer if Edith had been played by an older, plainer actress.
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Post by Fading Fast on Mar 22, 2023 22:06:28 GMT
I've really enjoyed all that Topbilled and Fading Fast had to say about the movie, but I strongly disagree with both of you on one point.
Sam did not have an affair with Edith (Mary Astor.) First, Fran asks Sam for a divorce so she can marry the young titled man and you can see that Sam doesn't want it at all, the last thing he says to her as his train pulls away is, "Have I told you today that I adore you?" For a long time he was ready and willing to get back with her and to forgive everything.
Then, after a long lonely period he runs into Edith and she invites him to stay with her for a while as her guest. She mentions rest, fishing, and swimming.
Sam says: "It sounds wonderful, but what will the neighbors think?"
Edith says: Being Italians, they think a great deal.
But, that doesn't mean it would have to be so! Or, that I'd have it so even if you wanted it so.
This is how Edith has managed to live and travel alone and still keep her reputation and self-respect. She has a firm rule for herself to not let any friendships cross the line she has drawn for herself. I don't think they did anything but have fun, she was waiting for marriage and he knew that.
I think all this is part of Sam's sudden decision on the ship to go back to Edith. Fran was demonstrating her shallowness in acting like her adultery was no big deal and saying that Sam was as much to blame for their problems as she was. The contrast in the morals of the two women jumped out at him, even though Fran's beauty had made him "adore" her for 20 years. He was finally seeing her less beautiful inner qualities.
I think this might have all been clearer if Edith had been played by an older, plainer actress.
That is some very cool insight. I love our group as you get so much more out of these movies sharing all of this - including the stuff we disagree about, probably even because of that - than watching it alone or with someone who is annoyed that they're watching a black and white movie .
As happens often, I now want to watch "Dodsworth" again to think about all the things we've talked about in this thread.
I'm excited to watch "Never Look Back," this Sunday as, like with "Peter Ibbetson," I never heard of it before and I know nothing about it going it. I should be fun.
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Post by galacticgirrrl on Mar 26, 2023 15:33:22 GMT
I loved this movie on a surface level, knowing nothing about it. The more I find out about what went on behind the scenes the more I understand why this works for me - two women fighting for their lives in the real world and the cinematic realm. I didn't remember Fran as being so self absorbed and one dimensional. Lewis' marriage to Dorothy Thompson occurred as he finished the draft of Dodsworth. He met her as he roamed around lost in Europe apparently. I don't know anything of his previous marriage to Grace Livingston Hegger but I would imagine there is much of life imitating art before us. Not everyone is able to consciously uncouple. Dodsworth has been self absorbed with business for 20 years but this isn't metered out for us very well in the film adaptation. The novel makes this point. The novel is also much more than a simple examination of a marriage. It's skewering of the middle class and analysis of the differences between European and American mores doesn't come across on the screen. (I hope my little snip about his character in the novel displays at the bottom - he was just as empty and foppish as Fran) I fear to think what we would have thought of Mrs. Dodsworth had she been directly transcribed from the novel or play. William Wyler and Ruth Chatterton fought bitterly almost daily on the interpretation of Fran. Chatterton felt she should be played entirely as a villainess, whereas Wyler found reasons to sympathize with the character. I imagine one of the added sympathies was her immediate reaction when she found out about her grandchild - an enormous smile. Fran was likely the one at home who raised such a lovely thoughtful daughter. There doesn't seem to be any debate that she did do her duty as a wife and mother. She has asked for some fun and freedom in return - is that so unreasonable? Are we being overly critical of her? Dodsworth could have fulfilled these needs. She has told him she is dying. Could he not have sublimated his own needs even for a short while? She managed to do it for twenty years. Who is colder? I love Walter Huston but I have many question marks surrounding the character he plays. According to Mary Astor, the tension on set was increased by Chatterton's own desperation at her advancing age. This was to be Ruth Chatterton's final American film. At the time, Astor actually was 30 and Chatterton was 43. The desperation we see on the screen is real and it is palpable. Mary Astor meanwhile worked on the set during the day, then went directly to specially scheduled court proceedings in the early evening. With the press constantly stalking her, she sometimes slept on the set to avoid confrontation. Many people involved in the production sided with Astor throughout the ordeal, including William Wyler, Samuel Goldwyn, and Ruth Chatterton, who appeared as a character witness on Astor's behalf. Mary Astor wrote in her memoirs that Edith Cortright was her favorite role, also reflecting that she channeled her struggle of her public child-custody hearing into her role: "When I went into court and faced the bedlam . . . that would have broken me up completely, I kept the little pot boiling that was Edith Cortright." One final interesting note.... MGM considered a remake in the mid-1950s with Gregory Peck in the title role, Elizabeth Taylor as the wife, and Grace Kelly as Edith with Julius J. Epstein doing the adaptation. They were not able to schedule the three, and plans were abandoned.
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Post by topbilled on Mar 26, 2023 15:51:15 GMT
I've really enjoyed all that Topbilled and Fading Fast had to say about the movie, but I strongly disagree with both of you on one point.
Sam did not have an affair with Edith (Mary Astor.) First, Fran asks Sam for a divorce so she can marry the young titled man and you can see that Sam doesn't want it at all, the last thing he says to her as his train pulls away is, "Have I told you today that I adore you?" For a long time he was ready and willing to get back with her and to forgive everything.
Then, after a long lonely period he runs into Edith and she invites him to stay with her for a while as her guest. She mentions rest, fishing, and swimming.
Sam says: "It sounds wonderful, but what will the neighbors think?"
Edith says: Being Italians, they think a great deal.
But, that doesn't mean it would have to be so! Or, that I'd have it so even if you wanted it so.
This is how Edith has managed to live and travel alone and still keep her reputation and self-respect. She has a firm rule for herself to not let any friendships cross the line she has drawn for herself. I don't think they did anything but have fun, she was waiting for marriage and he knew that.
I think all this is part of Sam's sudden decision on the ship to go back to Edith. Fran was demonstrating her shallowness in acting like her adultery was no big deal and saying that Sam was as much to blame for their problems as she was. The contrast in the morals of the two women jumped out at him, even though Fran's beauty had made him "adore" her for 20 years. He was finally seeing her less beautiful inner qualities.
I think this might have all been clearer if Edith had been played by an older, plainer actress.
I think there are contradictions in the film, to circumvent the production code. For instance, we are not told explicitly that Fran's been getting between the sheets with any of the men she's seeing but I think we can assume some hanky panky has been going on.
Also, I think we can assume that Sam and Edith start a sexual relationship when he goes to live with her in Italy, despite the fact he's not divorced from Fran. The line about the neighbors, seems to bear this out, because the idea is that Italians understand passion. But because Sam has shown some concern and regard for societal norms, the production code lets it slip by...especially since they are not even permitted to kiss on screen. Though we can be sure they did kiss, and did more than kiss.
Part of the "brilliance" of the film is that it successfully manipulates the audience to want Sam to sin, because they've made Fran such an unlikable witch, that any of his transgressions are considered necessary to get away from her. But any reasonable human being would know that Sam is not one hundred percent above reproach, because he has no doubt done things to get ahead in business and probably had made Fran's life a misery back in Zenith.
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Post by topbilled on Mar 26, 2023 15:56:51 GMT
I said in an earlier post how I thought a remake in the 1940s would have been good with Bette Davis and Claude Rains. But upon further consideration, I think it would have been even better with Bette Davis and Herbert Marshall. After all, they did team up for Sam Goldwyn in THE LITTLE FOXES. This would have been a good follow-up for them on the heels of FOXES' success. Paul Lukas, Mary Astor and Maria Ouspenskaya could have still played the other key roles.
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Post by Fading Fast on Apr 14, 2023 19:29:19 GMT
I recently watched the Mary Astor documentary, "Scandal: The Trial of Mary Astor," (it was on TCM) and it talks a few times about "Dodsworth." The focus of the comments are on how Mary Astor used her character from the movie to help her maintain her composure in court in the custody battle for her child, but it also briefly talked about about the movie itself.
One comment that is relevant to our conversation above was made by the son of the director William Wyler who said that his father, Wyler, and Ruth Chatterton had a different view of her character. Molly Haskell, a well-known film critic, then said that Chatterton wanted to play the character as a "complete "b*tch" while Wyler wanted to humanize the character. The relevant comments are made just after 26 minutes in.
I'd recommend the documentary, regardless of your interest in the above comment, if you are at all interested in Mary Astor as it provided some interesting insight into her life, challenges, personality and thinking.
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Post by kims on Apr 14, 2023 21:24:11 GMT
I saw the documentary also. I like that Chatterton went with Astor to court as a sign of support. Also interesting was the fake or altered diary. Reminds me of the custody battle for Gloria Vanderbilt-the way the press covered both trials.
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