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Post by MacGuffin on Nov 27, 2022 14:52:41 GMT
I know a question like this is loaded with political buckshot, but I'm sincerely wondering if TCM can gauge the reception for the "Reframed" series, especially as compared to a past Saturday night series like "The Essentials".
It seems to me that using the prime-time weekend time slots to feature a series like this would limit viewership rather than expand it. The movies are certainly worthy of showcase, but is anyone learning anything new?
These movies seem to be chosen because they promote certain societal changes (race relations, acceptance of homosexuality, etc.). An alternate title for the series might be "Movies That Show Us That Prejudices Are Bad".
Is that a lesson you need or want TCM to teach you, or is this merely virtue signaling on the part of TCM in order to attract young progressives?
One last question: Have TCM's programming choices of late caused you to lose any of your enthusiasm for TCM?
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Post by topbilled on Nov 27, 2022 15:52:11 GMT
I know a question like this is loaded with political buckshot, but I'm sincerely wondering if TCM can gauge the reception for the "Reframed" series, especially as compared to a past Saturday night series like "The Essentials". It seems to me that using the prime-time weekend time slots to feature a series like this would limit viewership rather than expand it. The movies are certainly worthy of showcase, but is anyone learning anything new? These movies seem to be chosen because they promote certain societal changes (race relations, acceptance of homosexuality, etc.). An alternate title for the series might be " Movies That Show Us That Prejudices Are Bad". Is that a lesson you need or want TCM to teach you, or is this merely virtue signaling on the part of TCM in order to attract young progressives? One last question: Have TCM's programming choices of late caused you to lose any of your enthusiasm for TCM? I don't want to get into a political debate...but humorously, they keep re-framing (rebranding, renaming) various series to present the same politically correct arguments. Their thematic programming has become apologetic and predictable.
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Post by MacGuffin on Nov 27, 2022 17:07:20 GMT
I know a question like this is loaded with political buckshot, but I'm sincerely wondering if TCM can gauge the reception for the "Reframed" series, especially as compared to a past Saturday night series like "The Essentials". It seems to me that using the prime-time weekend time slots to feature a series like this would limit viewership rather than expand it. The movies are certainly worthy of showcase, but is anyone learning anything new? These movies seem to be chosen because they promote certain societal changes (race relations, acceptance of homosexuality, etc.). An alternate title for the series might be " Movies That Show Us That Prejudices Are Bad". Is that a lesson you need or want TCM to teach you, or is this merely virtue signaling on the part of TCM in order to attract young progressives? One last question: Have TCM's programming choices of late caused you to lose any of your enthusiasm for TCM? I don't want to get into a political debate...but humorously, they keep re-framing (rebranding, renaming) various series to present the same politically correct arguments. Their thematic programming has become apologetic and predictable. I agree whole-heartedly. This kind of topic can quickly go off the rails as those in the "Enough already, we get it!" camp clash with those in the "We must right the wrongs of the past!" camp. But for me, the continual re-packaging of these themes serves only to finger-wave a whiff of shame toward the people who simply want to enjoy classic movies for what they are.
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Post by cmovieviewer on Nov 27, 2022 21:08:01 GMT
I don't want to derail the subject, but I've been meaning to ask what people thought about the way the intros have been produced - the conversations seem to be recorded from a Zoom call with Ben in one office building and the guests in another. I thought Ben was living in California now but I'm not sure what the logistics would be for all of the guests to be somewhere else.
I made myself laugh by imagining that Ben and his guests are all really in the same building but they just don't want to see each other face-to-face.
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Post by Fading Fast on Nov 27, 2022 21:46:07 GMT
I don't want to derail the subject, but I've been meaning to ask what people thought about the way the intros have been produced - the conversations seem to be recorded from a Zoom call with Ben in one office building and the guests in another. I thought Ben was living in California now but I'm not sure what the logistics would be for all of the guests to be somewhere else.
I made myself laugh by imagining that Ben and his guests are all really in the same building but they just don't want to see each other face-to-face. I know I'm nuts, but it also looks to me like the hosts are superimposed (is that the right word?) in front of the room backgrounds as it doesn't look to me like they are really there.
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Post by cmovieviewer on Nov 27, 2022 22:54:32 GMT
I know I'm nuts, but it also looks to me like the hosts are superimposed (is that the right word?) in front of the room backgrounds as it doesn't look to me like they are really there. I've heard that some of the teleconferencing programs do allow you to replace your background with something else. The one that Ben and guests are using might be trying to focus on the speaker separately from the background, which would give it an outline effect. It does seem like a strange background - Ben has a few books and photos on the shelf which he might have picked but the rest is very plain. The guests look like they're in a glass-walled conference room somewhere.
With respect to the content, I did enjoy Ben's talks with screenwriter Larry Karaszewski concerning The Best Years of Our Lives. (Ben was in studio and Mr. Karaszewski appeared to be at his home for those.) I thought it was more of a standard discussion of the film and not really anything controversial. Mr. Karaszewski was very knowledgeable about the subject and very enthusiastic about his participation in the discussion, which I think always helps.
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Post by I Love Melvin on Nov 28, 2022 0:24:18 GMT
It seems like TCM wants to get out pre-emptively the idea that they're capable of holding a "modern" view of movie history and that they're not avoiding the contradictions which that history presents, all while simultaneously showcasing and exploiting the films which are their bread and butter. The "Reframed" series is basically their attempt to have it both ways. But the standard isn't universally applied. I recently watched The King and I; it was part of a night of movies about "royals" and was presented very straightforwardly, whereas it's a good example of a film which in another context could have come under scrutiny for racial stereotyping and problematic casting. Don't get me wrong; I like The King and I very much and was happy to see the beautiful print, but that was an example of how their commitment to that kind of revisionist thinking seems to come and go.
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Post by topbilled on Nov 28, 2022 16:14:25 GMT
It seems like TCM wants to get out pre-emptively the idea that they're capable of holding a "modern" view of movie history and that they're not avoiding the contradictions which that history presents, all while simultaneously showcasing and exploiting the films which are their bread and butter. The "Reframed" series is basically their attempt to have it both ways. But the standard isn't universally applied. I recently watched The King and I; it was part of a night of movies about "royals" and was presented very straightforwardly, whereas it's a good example of a film which in another context could have come under scrutiny for racial stereotyping and problematic casting. Don't get me wrong; I like The King and I very much and was happy to see the beautiful print, but that was an example of how their commitment to that kind of revisionist thinking seems to come and go. Excellent comment. Yes, I do think they want to have it 'both ways' because they still have their livelihoods to protect. So they can't damn the films entirely...
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Post by cineclassics on Nov 29, 2022 0:03:23 GMT
Agreed with the overall consensus thus far shared in this thread: TCM is in a difficult spot because their entire brand is celebrating classic cinema, yet, they see the demographics changing and social activism has become commonplace, therefore, TCM feels the need to jump on this bandwagon to show their "solidarity" and that they are "allies" with the historically marginalized in society.
But therein lies a problem--is TCM in the business of informing its audience of classic cinema or is it in the business of reframing classic cinema for modern audiences to atone for cinema's past mistakes? The former was the case from 1994-2017. Now, since the passing of Robert Osborne, it is clear that TCM has made it a priority to become more politically active in their presentations and discussions on classic cinema. Recently, TCM has shown Brokeback Mountain, An Inconvenient Truth, Boys Don't Cry and Super Size Me. Bizarre choices, but when viewed in the context of what TCM is attempting to become, it isn't surprising, yet it is no less unfortunate.
Let's look at the lineup of TCM hosts: Ben has been openly political and is very progressive. He used to be involved with The Young Turks, which is one of the most prominent and progressive alternative media outlets in the United States. Alicia is openly a feminist and has written books specifically about women in film. On the recent TCM Cruise, she specifically chose and introduced Adam's Rib, which is considered a very feminist film for its time. While I do not know Dave's political affiliations, he has openly stated he is a gay man who wishes certain unacceptable scenes weren't shown in classic cinema (he mentioned this about Swing Time in the very first season of Reframed--he didn't call for the film's censorship, so that was a plus). Jacqueline is considered an authority on African Americans in cinema and TCM has leaned on her to discuss certain unacceptable depictions of African Americans in classic cinema (she did the new trigger warning intro for Gone with the Wind). Eddie Muller is the only host who doesn't wear his identity or political affiliations on his sleeve, but he is very much sympathetic to left-leaning causes, as I follow him on Twitter and he on occasion, will make subtle comments on various worldwide events.
Now, none of what the TCM hosts believe or have shared is necessarily problematic on its own. However, take it as a sum total and that encompasses the entirety of the TCM brand.
Robert Osborne was a gay man and I don't recall him ever mentioning his private life nor his political affiliations while on TCM. In an interview, Robert told a story about attempting to persuade Jane Fonda to sit down for an interview on TCM. He told Jane, "I don't want to discuss your politics or position on the issues...instead, I want to discuss your movies." I think that speaks volumes about Robert's vision for TCM and celebrating classic cinema, and highlights just how far TCM has strayed from that vision in recent years.
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Post by The Hat Squad on Dec 1, 2022 7:26:03 GMT
I understand TCM having a host to discuss aspects of films that might be considered problematic by today's standards due to things like racism, etc. But I can't help but worry that at some time in the future TCM might opt to not show those films at all and thus deprive people of seeing those classic films.
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Post by sepiatone on Dec 1, 2022 18:08:53 GMT
I understand TCM having a host to discuss aspects of films that might be considered problematic by today's standards due to things like racism, etc. But I can't help but worry that at some time in the future TCM might opt to not show those films at all and thus deprive people of seeing those classic films. And that might cut their available "able to show" movie library by 2/3. I do get what they're trying to do, but it seems more like a "Let US show YOU how you're SUPPOSED to think and feel about these movies" kind of deal. My Dad used to use lecturing as a punishment. That wasn't really his INTENT, but his droning on and on did seem like punishment enough. But I never watched TCM to get either lectured OR punished. So I wish they'd STOP already. But that too, they're careful not to break a leg getting down from that high horse. Sepiatone
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Post by cineclassics on Dec 1, 2022 21:24:31 GMT
I understand TCM having a host to discuss aspects of films that might be considered problematic by today's standards due to things like racism, etc. But I can't help but worry that at some time in the future TCM might opt to not show those films at all and thus deprive people of seeing those classic films. I think what is most likely to happen is that instead of censoring/not showing the film entirely, TCM will resort to showing the film much less often. I always find it incredible, and frankly amusing, that the great Robert Osborne kicked off TCM back in 1994 with a showing of Gone with the Wind and proclaimed it, "what many consider the greatest film of all-time." As late as 2015, when introducing the film, Robert repeated that sentiment that it is often considered the greatest film ever. Knowing how much the hosts of TCM despise Gone with the Wind now, I'm sure they are very triggered to think TCM got its start showing that very film. As a side note, I knew things were headed in this direction a few years ago, prior to the recent Gone with the Wind outrage. I was in Hollywood Studios at Disney World with my wife and if you've been there you know that the theme park is decorated like Old Hollywood. One of the building facades is an old movie theater and a Gone with the Wind poster was prominently displayed. As we passed this theater, I turned to my wife and said, "I want you to take a photo of me with this Gone with the Wind poster." "Why?," she asked. "Because I don't expect it to be here much longer," I stated, "as I predict most corporations will try and distant themselves from anything deemed socially unacceptable all in an attempt to avoid trending negatively on social media." When my wife and I returned to Hollywood Studios the following year, the Gone with the Wind poster was replaced by a poster of The Three Caballeros.
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Post by sepiatone on Dec 2, 2022 17:06:40 GMT
Funny how many of the newer hosts feel "As WE Think, so goes(or should) the TCM audience." Actually, most people I know, white, black, whatever.... have no issue with the movie other than they just don't like it as a movie. Nothing about any "problematic" assumptions. And many of the African-Americans I know who like the movie say so because of HATTIE McDANIEL. A couple claiming her character reminded them of some neighbor lady they knew, or some Aunt or a Grandma. I've long felt it was the HOSTS( or a hostess)that have the problem with it, and thinks everybody else should too. To me, it's kinda like DISCO... I've always considered it "non-music for white kids who can't dance". MY "solution" to this "problem"? I refused to listen to it. But let those who liked it go ahead. I just made sure I kept out of range. Sepiatone
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Post by cineclassics on Dec 2, 2022 18:20:48 GMT
Funny how many of the newer hosts feel "As WE Think, so goes(or should) the TCM audience." Actually, most people I know, white, black, whatever.... have no issue with the movie other than they just don't like it as a movie. Nothing about any "problematic" assumptions. And many of the African-Americans I know who like the movie say so because of HATTIE McDANIEL. A couple claiming her character reminded them of some neighbor lady they knew, or some Aunt or a Grandma. I've long felt it was the HOSTS( or a hostess)that have the problem with it, and thinks everybody else should too. To me, it's kinda like DISCO... I've always considered it "non-music for white kids who can't dance". MY "solution" to this "problem"? I refused to listen to it. But let those who liked it go ahead. I just made sure I kept out of range. Sepiatone In my opinion, I don't think these corporate decisions are happening in a vacuum. Nearly every corporation over the last few years has started to embrace a more progressive tone on political issues and open atonement for past indiscretions from several generations ago. I think this sudden change in corporate strategy is due to the belief that the younger consumers are more progressive and endorse these political positions. In short, corporations view it as beneficial to their bottom line and an overall good business decision in the long run. Quite frankly, as much as I wish businesses would stay out of politics, I can't deny that corporations don't seem to be suffering from making public statements on political issues. Just a few years ago, Republicans were deemed as the party most closely aligned with major corporations. Now, Democrats are the party of major corporations because nearly all of them have embraced woke corporatism. To steer this back to TCM--once you incorporate political favoritism into your analysis, there is rarely any walking back from that approach. Activists both within the organization and externally, will apply massive pressure, and this is in part why these corporations feel the need to "take a stand," whereas prior to about 2016 or so, generally, corporations were not openly political. I expect TCM to continue doubling down on this approach because they believe the only way to attract newer, younger viewers is to convince them that TCM is "on the right side of history," and are willing to take a stance.
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