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Post by Fading Fast on Aug 30, 2023 16:17:22 GMT
From today's SOTS movie "Brass Target" (on now) we have Sophia Loren in a beret:
Berets are everywhere once you start noticing them.
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Post by NoShear on Aug 30, 2023 20:27:09 GMT
Thanks for the great post, NoShear!
And congratulations to the 2023 LLWS champs, the California team from El Segundo. Where I left my wallet. But I digress.
The team costumes in The Bad News Bears (1976) are a great example of costume really pulling its weight in a film. Much is made of Tatum O'Neal's character, Amanda Whurlitzer, being so big/tall. She certainly towers over the four other boys in the front row with her here, but she's not taller than the rest of the boys. But, if you put her in slightly slimmer cut high-waisted knickers that end just below the kneecaps, and you stretch her garters to capacity, well then those lines all inform the eye that she is quite lanky. Even assigning her the number eleven keeps everything moving vertically. Kudos are due costumer Nancy Martinelli.
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You're welcome, BunnyWhit, and thanks for the great response... With El Segundo's squad, I thought of the Brett - Ken and George - brothers who both attended El Segundo High School: www.dailybreeze.com/2023/08/27/it-gave-me-chills-hundreds-pack-local-park-to-cheer-el-segundos-big-little-league-win/ When I played water polo, Title IX was still being hashed out in regard to its impact on collegiate sports, so the girls still played co-educationally in Los Angeles - including at least one for polo powerhouse El Segundo High if I correctly recall. Speaking of water polo dropped in the context of film discussion, FATAL GAMES (1984) used Aviation High School's swimming pool shortly before it was filled in:  |
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Post by NoShear on Aug 30, 2023 21:06:08 GMT
I'm loving all the baseball uniform talk above. No shock, but I love those old baseball uniforms, like Cooper's in "Pride of the Yankees" here:
My favorite part in THE PRIDE OF THE YANKEES is the sandlot scene where the young Lou Gehrig barters Sweet Caporal cards with a Roger Bresnahan wannabe for some playing time:  It was a similar post to this on the old T CM Message Boards which inspired my avatar adoption of the Norma Shearer cigarette card you see, Fading Fast. |
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Post by BunnyWhit on Aug 31, 2023 2:47:45 GMT
Bunny, how would you describe this variation of the letter sweater worn by Gordon MacCrae in On Moonlight Bay (1951)? It almost doesn't read as a knit. And are those snaps or buttons?
You're right about how it reads. More about "read" in a minute.
I love how this sweater is so beautifully fitted to McCrae. I comment on fit a lot, and I've been asked before why it's important. Sure, a slouchy, oversized garment can be comfortable on a Sunday morning while sipping a cuppa and doing the crossword, but with such a garment the wearer is moving around inside of it without the garment doing much other than hanging there. A well-fitted garment actually is more comfortable because you don't have to fight the extra fabric. The garment moves with you, and that's actually less restrictive. Counterintuitive, I know. I notice that many people confuse "fitted" with "tight". A properly fitted garment should just skim along the body without being too tight, pulling, or wrinkling between strained seams. This sort of garment actually wears better than one that is ill fitted, and by wears I mean not only looks more attractive but also enjoys a longer life.
I'd call McCrae's sweater a classic letterman's varsity cardigan. These sweaters are supposed to land past the hip, as does this one, in order to keep the kidneys and joints warm. That is its purpose. Because this style is for active wear -- insert "play ball" here! -- it is designed to keep the wearer ready for continued play. It's a much more stylish iteration of the Gatorade towel pitchers wrap 'round their arms today.
The knit in pockets on McCrae's sweater are perfectly perfect. That is the proper construction method for these sweaters. This is usually the construction I see on sweaters from or styled after those from the early 20th century. Around mid-century, many of the sweaters took the shortcut of applying patch pockets instead, and that completely alters the look. Knit in pockets provide a clean, slimming line. Patch pockets interrupt the line of the garment, effectively cutting it short. They tend to look a bit clunky. A sweater with knit in pockets is immediately elevated, the pockets are actually more usable, and such a sweater easily can be at home in the dugout or in the den.
I also love the construction of the shawl collar. It is what I would consider the "right" way. Certainly there are many ways to knit the collar. It can be knit all in one with the garment, knit separately and joined, partially knit on and partially pieced. Any of these methods can be knit vertically, horizontally, or in combination. From what I can tell, the collar on McCrae's sweater is of the partial and combination variety. For this type of construction, the front portion of the shawl collar is knit in with the fronts of the garment and the facings. The back of the collar can be knit on with the back of the sweater, or it can be knit as a separate piece and joined, or the stitches at the back neck can be picked up and the collar knit from there.
If you look closely at the collar at the 1:56 mark in the video you provided, you can see the seam. Sometimes this is actually a seam, meaning two pieces are stitched together in some fashion, and sometimes it's a join where stitches in the knitting are left live for a time and abandoned, then later picked up to complete knitting in a different direction. In sweaters with this construction, the stitches on the collar front run vertically with the garment fronts, and the stitches on the back portion of the collar typically run perpendicular to those stitches on the front. It creates a beautiful detail, but it also is functional. This type of construction helps the weighty shawl collar to lie flat, but it also holds a lovely shape and really hugs the wearer's neck when the collar is turned up and buttoned.
I see why you wondered if the sweater has snaps. I'd say it definitely has buttons. In some of those close-ups on McCrae you can tell there are stitched (not knit in) button holes on the left side, and the buttons on the right side are smooth topped. They are probably simple, two-hole buttons, as that seems to be the standard, but there also is the chance that they are shank buttons. I can't see them well enough to know which type they are.
This sweater brought to mind the very similar one Ralph Bellamy wears in Sunrise at Campobello (1960). Both garments are of the same time period. On Moonlight Bay is set during WWI, and Sunrise at Campobello is set in 1921.
Back to how McCrae's sweater reads. If anyone ever tells you that viewing a film at home is the same as seeing it in the theater, well, just no. I'm sure we all have experienced this with films. Maybe the scenery looks great, or the bad guy looks sweaty, or her lips look pouty when we watch a film at home on our monitors or fancy TVs, but in the theater, where films belong, the scenery is positively majestic, you can practically smell the bad guy, and her lips are nothing short of kissable.
Costume also looks different in the theater. Here's an example. In the "Moses Supposes" number from Singin' in the Rain (1952) (which I love), Donald O'Connor wears that beautiful jade sweater. When I first saw this movie, it was on television. It was not until I saw the film on the big screen that I could see the cuffs and bottom band of O'Connor's sweater are turned up. The sweater was too long for him. Still later, when I viewed this number via the internet and a good monitor, I can see that the sweater is turned up. If I'd never seen this film anywhere other than television, I'd never have known.
Another film that delivers a huge contrast in costume for me is Lawrence of Arabia (1962). I love this film. Many times I've heard people say the desert in this film must be viewed in the theater, that home viewing doesn't do it justice. I absolutely agree. But I also notice the costumes are a million times better in the theater. Take Claude Rains' grey silk suit. From television viewing, I can't really see the sheen and depth that light bouncing off silk creates. I also did not know until seeing this film in the theater that the silk is slubbed. Simply put, the fabric is gorgeous. (And don't even get me started on those cuffs!)
Further, the leathers worn by Anthony Quayle, Jack Hawkins, and others look properly patinaed and beautiful on the big screen, though rather ordinary on a television. You can practically smell leather over the stale popcorn when you view this film in the theater.
I'd be willing to bet, I Love Melvin, that in similar fashion we would be even more taken by McCrae's cardigan on the big screen!
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Post by Fading Fast on Aug 31, 2023 3:52:35 GMT
Bunny, how would you describe this variation of the letter sweater worn by Gordon MacCrae in On Moonlight Bay (1951)? It almost doesn't read as a knit. And are those snaps or buttons?
You're right about how it reads. More about "read" in a minute.
I love how this sweater is so beautifully fitted to McCrae. I comment on fit a lot, and I've been asked before why it's important. Sure, a slouchy, oversized garment can be comfortable on a Sunday morning while sipping a cuppa and doing the crossword, but with such a garment the wearer is moving around inside of it without the garment doing much other than hanging there. A well-fitted garment actually is more comfortable because you don't have to fight the extra fabric. The garment moves with you, and that's actually less restrictive. Counterintuitive, I know. I notice that many people confuse "fitted" with "tight". A properly fitted garment should just skim along the body without being too tight, pulling, or wrinkling between strained seams. This sort of garment actually wears better than one that is ill fitted, and by wears I mean not only looks more attractive but also enjoys a longer life.
I'd call McCrae's sweater a classic letterman's varsity cardigan. These sweaters are supposed to land past the hip, as does this one, in order to keep the kidneys and joints warm. That is its purpose. Because this style is for active wear -- insert "play ball" here! -- it is designed to keep the wearer ready for continued play. It's a much more stylish iteration of the Gatorade towel pitchers wrap 'round their arms today.
The knit in pockets on McCrae's sweater are perfectly perfect. That is the proper construction method for these sweaters. This is usually the construction I see on sweaters from or styled after those from the early 20th century. Around mid-century, many of the sweaters took the shortcut of applying patch pockets instead, and that completely alters the look. Knit in pockets provide a clean, slimming line. Patch pockets interrupt the line of the garment, effectively cutting it short. They tend to look a bit clunky. A sweater with knit in pockets is immediately elevated, the pockets are actually more usable, and such a sweater easily can be at home in the dugout or in the den.
I also love the construction of the shawl collar. It is what I would consider the "right" way. Certainly there are many ways to knit the collar. It can be knit all in one with the garment, knit separately and joined, partially knit on and partially pieced. Any of these methods can be knit vertically, horizontally, or in combination. From what I can tell, the collar on McCrae's sweater is of the partial and combination variety. For this type of construction, the front portion of the shawl collar is knit in with the fronts of the garment and the facings. The back of the collar can be knit on with the back of the sweater, or it can be knit as a separate piece and joined, or the stitches at the back neck can be picked up and the collar knit from there.
If you look closely at the collar at the 1:56 mark in the video you provided, you can see the seam. Sometimes this is actually a seam, meaning two pieces are stitched together in some fashion, and sometimes it's a join where stitches in the knitting are left live for a time and abandoned, then later picked up to complete knitting in a different direction. In sweaters with this construction, the stitches on the collar front run vertically with the garment fronts, and the stitches on the back portion of the collar typically run perpendicular to those stitches on the front. It creates a beautiful detail, but it also is functional. This type of construction helps the weighty shawl collar to lie flat, but it also holds a lovely shape and really hugs the wearer's neck when the collar is turned up and buttoned.
I see why you wondered if the sweater has snaps. I'd say it definitely has buttons. In some of those close-ups on McCrae you can tell there are stitched (not knit in) button holes on the left side, and the buttons on the right side are smooth topped. They are probably simple, two-hole buttons, as that seems to be the standard, but there also is the chance that they are shank buttons. I can't see them well enough to know which type they are.
This sweater brought to mind the very similar one Ralph Bellamy wears in Sunrise at Campobello (1960). Both garments are of the same time period. On Moonlight Bay is set during WWI, and Sunrise at Campobello is set in 1921.
Back to how McCrae's sweater reads. If anyone ever tells you that viewing a film at home is the same as seeing it in the theater, well, just no. I'm sure we all have experienced this with films. Maybe the scenery looks great, or the bad guy looks sweaty, or her lips look pouty when we watch a film at home on our monitors or fancy TVs, but in the theater, where films belong, the scenery is positively majestic, you can practically smell the bad guy, and her lips are nothing short of kissable.
Costume also looks different in the theater. Here's an example. In the "Moses Supposes" number from Singin' in the Rain (1952) (which I love), Donald O'Connor wears that beautiful jade sweater. When I first saw this movie, it was on television. It was not until I saw the film on the big screen that I could see the cuffs and bottom band of O'Connor's sweater are turned up. The sweater was too long for him. Still later, when I viewed this number via the internet and a good monitor, I can see that the sweater is turned up. If I'd never seen this film anywhere other than television, I'd never have known.
Another film that delivers a huge contrast in costume for me is Lawrence of Arabia (1962). I love this film. Many times I've heard people say the desert in this film must be viewed in the theater, that home viewing doesn't do it justice. I absolutely agree. But I also notice the costumes are a million times better in the theater. Take Claude Rains' grey silk suit. From television viewing, I can't really see the sheen and depth that light bouncing off silk creates. I also did not know until seeing this film in the theater that the silk is slubbed. Simply put, the fabric is gorgeous. (And don't even get me started on those cuffs!)
Further, the leathers worn by Anthony Quayle, Jack Hawkins, and others look properly patinaed and beautiful on the big screen, though rather ordinary on a television. You can practically smell leather over the stale popcorn when you view this film in the theater.
I'd be willing to bet, I Love Melvin, that in similar fashion we would be even more taken by McCrae's cardigan on the big screen!
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Post by I Love Melvin on Aug 31, 2023 12:09:41 GMT
OMG. Bunny, I absolutely agree with Fading Fast. You answered every question which could possibly be asked and made great observations from your film viewing. And now I won't feel left out when "slubbing" comes up in conversation because I made a bee-line for the dictionary as soon as I read it. You're right that nothing beats viewing on a theater screen. Remember how grateful we were for those relatively fuzzy images on VHS just because it meant we could watch at home? DVD and Blu-ray are better, but theater is king. Thanks for that deep dive. You really perked up the Classic Film forum.
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Post by NoShear on Aug 31, 2023 15:41:32 GMT
You know it, FadingFast! I've always wanted to knit a baseball sweater. (I even have been known to take my knitting to the ballgame.) I don't know that my skills are up to it though. To knit one as historically accurately as possible requires some tricky bits of construction that I'm not sure I can handle.
And here's the great Walter Johnson sporting his well-worn sweater with the shawl collar turned up.
 Let's see: She's a cinephile, a sewist...and she also knows who the Big Train was! As similar deference to Peebs for her James Bond knowledge which I once posted:  What about Operation Grand Slam, BunnyWhit?! |
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Post by NoShear on Aug 31, 2023 15:55:22 GMT
Regarding the changeup you threw with the beret, Fading Fast: Is that legal?? (I can hear Pete Townshend saying you might be called up against the committee for that.) If so... There's this stubby right-hander I've got in my bullpen:  Don't let the coy demeanor fool you. She's absolutely driven! |
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Post by Fading Fast on Aug 31, 2023 21:19:53 GMT
Presented without (beret) comment:
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Post by Fading Fast on Aug 31, 2023 21:56:40 GMT
I lied. I'm going to make three comments.
1. I love that cup and saucer. I'd bet those two lines on the cup are green. (Yes, my life is sad and empty.)
2. If that is a crinkle-cut French fry, and I was Bogie, it would already have been swiped. (It's wartime, who knows when you'll have a chance to eat one again.)
3. In truth, her beret looks a bit like a mushroom cap, but she's so damn adorable, it still works.
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Post by I Love Melvin on Aug 31, 2023 23:09:53 GMT
I lied. I'm going to make three comments.
1. I love that cup and saucer. I'd bet those two lines on the cup are green. (Yes, my life is sad and empty.)
2. If that is a crinkle-cut French fry, and I was Bogie, it would already have been swiped. (It's wartime, who knows when you'll have a chance to eat one again.)
3. In truth, her beret looks a bit like a mushroom cap, but she's so damn adorable, it still works. I chuckled when I read "mushroom" because that's what Brabara Parkins called this beret, which she hated, that they made her wear in Valley of the Dolls.  |
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Post by I Love Melvin on Sept 1, 2023 14:07:24 GMT
For a lot of those old westerns the hats were pretty basic and standardized, but when western stars started to emerge so did more individual styles? This one worn by Errol Flynn in Dodge City (1939) seemed distinctive to me. It reads as asymmetrical, but that must be the way the brim has been shaped. The fringed buckskin helped set the character, but then the dandy-ish air of the hat took it in another direction. Add a plume and he's D'Artagnan. I was wondering if he was a cavalry officer in the past, because that could maybe explain his style of hat, but that's not mentioned in the movie, so I guess it has to be chalked up to the character's (or the wardrobe department's) choice. He be stylin'.  But then I looked around and realized that maybe the hat itself isn't all that different, just the personalized shaping, the way all those guys in Eddie Muller Land did with their fedoras. Now I see it's maybe a standard variety of western hat, just with a dash of Errol thrown in. I remembered John Wayne wore something like it in The Big Trail (1930), but with the brim slightly lowered (and with a chin strap...a Spanish inluence?). This is the best image I could find of it.  And here's the poor hat after the snow hit the fan.  I don't really know much about hats, especially cowboy hats, and just went down a rabbit hole. But there may be stuff to say for people who do know about them? |
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Post by NoShear on Sept 1, 2023 16:08:19 GMT
I lied. I'm going to make three comments.
1. I love that cup and saucer. I'd bet those two lines on the cup are green. (Yes, my life is sad and empty.)
2. If that is a crinkle-cut French fry, and I was Bogie, it would already have been swiped. (It's wartime, who knows when you'll have a chance to eat one again.)
3. In truth, her beret looks a bit like a mushroom cap, but she's so damn adorable, it still works. I chuckled when I read "mushroom" because that's what Brabara Parkins called this beret, which she hated, that they made her wear in Valley of the Dolls. I had a chuckle over Fading Fast's parenthetical addition to his cup analysis. It reminded me of Dargo's post-retirement comment that he had way too much free time. |
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Post by dianedebuda on Sept 1, 2023 16:35:56 GMT
See Dargo on SSO, but wish he was here with his eccentricities. 😆
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Post by I Love Melvin on Sept 1, 2023 17:05:13 GMT
See Dargo on SSO, but wish he was here with his eccentricities. 😆 There are people over there I still miss from the TCM board, but I've tried a bunch of times to sign up and just gave up. Grow where you're planted, eh? New home, new identity. (I was DougieB at TCM.) |
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