|
Post by cineclassics on Mar 14, 2023 22:42:57 GMT
|
|
|
Post by sagebrush on Mar 18, 2023 14:04:48 GMT
I'm voting for TROUBLE IN PARADISE, because I love the cast, the opening credits song and Lubitsch. It's tough competition for any film to be placed side by side with GWTW, though.
|
|
|
Post by cineclassics on Mar 18, 2023 14:29:48 GMT
I'm voting for TROUBLE IN PARADISE, because I love the cast, the opening credits song and Lubitsch. It's tough competition for any film to be placed side by side with GWTW, though.
I think an argument can be made that Trouble in Paradise is not only the best Lubitsch film, but also the best pre-code film. Even with that being said, Gone with the Wind still feels almost unbelievably ambitious, even 80 years later. From the ensemble cast, the production design, wardrobe, cinematography, the burning of Atlanta, the historical significance of Hattie McDaniel winning an Oscar, and on and on, I'll go to my grave defending this film and arguing why people in 2023 should still give a damn about its relevance.
|
|
|
Post by kims on Mar 18, 2023 15:48:41 GMT
I think GWTW gets picked on because it is so well known. Hopefully not starting an argument, but critics, IMO focus on the films instead of focusing on making things right today.
|
|
|
Post by sepiatone on Mar 18, 2023 16:19:23 GMT
"Making things RIGHT"?
Sepiatone
|
|
|
Post by kims on Mar 18, 2023 17:49:43 GMT
IMO teach the history of film-fine. Criticizing actors for the roles they accepted to get work-not fine. I like Hattie McDaniels' quote "I'd rather play a maid than be one." It's the faceless people (to most of us) who excuse themselves with only a white actor can play this part-not fine-I say they don't look hard enough. In the studio system the powers didn't seem to try very hard to develop people of color except to reaffirm stereotypes. I risk saying maybe in the time of the studio system maybe they couldn't make money unless the stars were white. But that was yesterday. Now there are quotas involved in applying to nominate a film for Oscar. Not sure how helpful that is-a writer can always write an extraneous part to insert to meet a quota. Need more decision makers to stretch their thinking-like Howard Hawks turning THE FRONT PAGE into a male/female duo instead of both main characters male. And while I'm spouting, too many films were message pictures when minorities got roles. I believe it was Capra and I have to paraphrase because I don't remember the exact quote if you entertain people the message gets across. Sorry you asked, Sepiatone?
|
|
|
Post by jamesjazzguitar on Mar 18, 2023 21:42:58 GMT
I think GWTW gets picked on because it is so well known. Hopefully not starting an argument, but critics, IMO focus on the films instead of focusing on making things right today. GWTW gets picked on by me because while a good film, I don't believe it is a great one, with the second half rather unmoving and not very interesting.
|
|
|
Post by galacticgirrrl on Mar 18, 2023 22:12:15 GMT
I saw GWTW on the big screen at a rep in the 80s. It was a very strange experience that changed my feelings about the picture.
We all entered the theatre I'm sure in all earnestness but very quickly nervous tittering began to break out, eventually turning to all out raucous laughter throughout the audience.
I was a bit discombobulated at first but not as much as the pair of young women behind me, truly upset at the turn in the atmosphere. They were quite upset and didn't come around to the hilarity of some of the uncomfortable acting, writing and stereotypes as most of the rest of us were forced to confront in a communal environment.
|
|
|
Post by Lucky Dan on Mar 19, 2023 1:08:34 GMT
... critics, IMO focus on the films instead of focusing on making things right today. Are you saying critics should be advocates for social change? I don't read much contemporary mainstream media, like Rolling Stone or any of the popular entertainment sites, but I feel confident that if I did I would find them to be advocating, however subtly or heavy-handedly, from a progressive viewpoint. Do you not get that impression yourself?
|
|
|
Post by Lucky Dan on Mar 19, 2023 1:19:42 GMT
I have never seen Trouble in Paradise so I can't vote, but I wonder if, even with a strong female character in the lead role, Gone with the Wind won't soon go the way of other culturally out of sync works that nobody wants to defend.
I'm really surprised To Kill a Mockingbird hasn't yet. I mean its just a little condescending isn't? It's a sin to hurt these creatures who make music for us. The white saviour. All that.
|
|
|
Post by cineclassics on Mar 19, 2023 1:53:09 GMT
I have never seen Trouble in Paradise so I can't vote, but I wonder if, even with a strong female character in the lead role, Gone with the Wind won't soon go the way of other culturally out of sync works that nobody wants to defend.
I'm really surprised To Kill a Mockingbird hasn't yet. I mean its just a little condescending isn't? It's a sin to hurt these creatures who make music for us. The white saviour. All that. Gone With the Wind has already fallen out of favor culturally. TCM has a trigger warning in its description, a prominent black director has called for it to be cancelled, among many, many, others, Disney removed the poster from its Hollywood Studios park in Orlando, Florida, Warner Bros. conveniently but not so subtly left it off of its montage and its box set celebrating the studio's 100th anniversary. GWTW is now the black sheep of Classic Hollywood, and I suspect, it always will be from here on out. What a shame. And I have heard that very criticism of the "white savior" in regards to To Kill a Mockingbird. I don't think it will suffer the same fate as GWTW, but the modern critics won't leave it untouched.
|
|
|
Post by kims on Mar 19, 2023 1:54:08 GMT
Lucky Dan, I should have made clear people criticizing a film in the belief they are improving a situation, not meaning film critics. The white savior thing may bite TO KILL A MOCKING BIRD eventually. I still identify with it on the stand up for what you believe is right. In 1960, in a restaurant on Pennsylvania Turnpike, my family was dressed rather casually. A couple of color both elegantly dressed was refused service. It wasn't much of a gesture, but my father said let's go, paid the bill and we left. True, the restaurant lost no money, we didn't effect change, but Dad said we wouldn't participate in that discrimination. He taught talk doesn't always make change, there has to be action sometimes.
|
|
|
Post by Lucky Dan on Mar 19, 2023 2:47:54 GMT
I wonder if Gone with the Wind won't soon go the way of other culturally out of sync works...
I'm really surprised To Kill a Mockingbird hasn't yet. The white saviour. All that. Gone With the Wind has already fallen out of favor culturally. TCM has a trigger warning in its description, a prominent black director has called for it to be cancelled, among many, many, others, Disney removed the poster from its Hollywood Studios park in Orlando, Florida, Warner Bros. conveniently but not so subtly left it off of its montage and its box set celebrating the studio's 100th anniversary. GWTW is now the black sheep of Classic Hollywood, and I suspect, it always will be from here on out. What a shame. And I have heard that very criticism of the "white savior" in regards to To Kill a Mockingbird. I don't think it will suffer the same fate as GWTW, but the modern critics won't leave it untouched. The Disney thing isn't the least bit surprising but the Warners erasure is news. Thanks for the update.
I'm not as sure that Mockingbird will survive. That "Stand up children, your father's passing" line is way too much, and I for one won't mourn it's downgrading. However, invoking Mayella Ewell is a handy rebuttal to the 'Believe all women" slogan.
|
|
|
Post by BunnyWhit on Mar 19, 2023 14:43:14 GMT
I think an argument can be made that Trouble in Paradise is not only the best Lubitsch film, but also the best pre-code film. Even with that being said, Gone with the Wind still feels almost unbelievably ambitious, even 80 years later. From the ensemble cast, the production design, wardrobe, cinematography, the burning of Atlanta, the historical significance of Hattie McDaniel winning an Oscar, and on and on, I'll go to my grave defending this film and arguing why people in 2023 should still give a damn about its relevance. Well stated. It's Gone with the Wind for me.
|
|
|
Post by vannorden on Mar 20, 2023 0:44:53 GMT
I have never seen Trouble in Paradise so I can't vote, but I wonder if, even with a strong female character in the lead role, Gone with the Wind won't soon go the way of other culturally out of sync works that nobody wants to defend.
I'm really surprised To Kill a Mockingbird hasn't yet. I mean its just a little condescending isn't? It's a sin to hurt these creatures who make music for us. The white saviour. All that. Gone With the Wind has already fallen out of favor culturally. TCM has a trigger warning in its description, a prominent black director has called for it to be cancelled, among many, many, others, Disney removed the poster from its Hollywood Studios park in Orlando, Florida, Warner Bros. conveniently but not so subtly left it off of its montage and its box set celebrating the studio's 100th anniversary. GWTW is now the black sheep of Classic Hollywood, and I suspect, it always will be from here on out. What a shame. And I have heard that very criticism of the "white savior" in regards to To Kill a Mockingbird. I don't think it will suffer the same fate as GWTW, but the modern critics won't leave it untouched. Such a shame is right. Sadly, Gone with the Wind has become a pariah due to rehashed controversies that feel outrageously redundant in the twenty-first century. Although far from my favorite film, I appreciate its beautiful aesthetics and groundbreaking feats that set new standards for scale, scope, and technical innovation in Hollywood. In 2019, my film school (Chapman's Dodge College) removed two posters related to Griffith's The Birth of a Nation that was gifted to the university by Cecil B. DeMille's granddaughter. Thankfully, the large Gone with the Wind poster still hangs proudly in the lobby hallway, but I fear someday, faculty could vote to have it removed.
|
|